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2022 vs the 2002 team


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I'm wondering what the 2022 team will need versus what the 2002 team had. Of course, we can't quantify heart and chemistry, but I don't think the 2002 team had great starters. We had a great bullpen and solid hitting. A championship team can have different components of success. In assessing the two teams, how far away is the '22 club from being as good as '02? This is not an assessment of our competition.

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1 hour ago, Torridd said:

I'm wondering what the 2022 team will need versus what the 2002 team had. Of course, we can't quantify heart and chemistry, but I don't think the 2002 team had great starters. We had a great bullpen and solid hitting. A championship team can have different components of success. In assessing the two teams, how far away is the '22 club from being as good as '02? This is not an assessment of our competition.

That team could play defense, which likely helped what was a middle of the road rotation put up a combined ERA that ranked 8th in all of MLB that season, 4th best in the AL. 

They also didn't start the year off with a great bullpen out of the gate -- they had Dennis Cook, Donne Wall, Mark Lukasuckwics..  But they stayed the course and went to the farm system when they needed help.. even as everyone wanted them to trade it away for guys like Alfonseca.  Hopefully Minasian has the vision to avoid mistakes while looking to find quick fixes like Stoneman did.

What does the 22 team need that the 02 had?  A GM that stood his ground against ownership.

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Grit:

Erstad, Spiezio, Fulmer, Eckstein, Salmon, Glaus, Percival, K-Rod, etc.

The "grit' factor should not be underestimated but of course it's only one piece of a winning team. We battled all year in 2002. Fighting for the wild card in the last week of the season, one of our few "non-grit" players, Garrett Anderson, provided the 3-run homer that beat Texas in that Thursday day game and clinched a playoff spot for us. We had lost four games in a row and 6 out of 7 and another 'collapse' was in the cards. I almost ran my car off the road as I was listening to that game on the radio when GA hit that bomb.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX200209260.shtml

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2 hours ago, Torridd said:

I'm wondering what the 2022 team will need versus what the 2002 team had. Of course, we can't quantify heart and chemistry, but I don't think the 2002 team had great starters. We had a great bullpen and solid hitting. A championship team can have different components of success. In assessing the two teams, how far away is the '22 club from being as good as '02? This is not an assessment of our competition.

The 02 club had a more balanced lineup but that could change in a heartbeat for the 2022 team.  They also had health.  And the defense was solid.  The bullpen had depth by the end of the year.  Again, I am going to keep beating this drum, but the rotation was about what the 2021 team showed and could be easily replicated.  

The 2022 team could easily be a playoff team with a couple reasonable modifications.  Frankly, I don't think it would take anything mind blowing but it would also be contingent on a couple other things.  Better defense and Health as the primaries.  And one thing that I personally think would have a huge impact and that's depth.  We've already got it on the rotation side but need it big time for the pen and for the position players in particular for the MIF.  

I would say that trading the likes of Marsh or Adell, who I feel could be 3-5 win players each as early as next year, for a rotation arm would be robbing peter to pay paul and likely add very little value to the team.  IF.  IF. IF they some thing right in other areas.  And IF they do, it's a more a sustainable product than just some two year window.  Which I really hope they don't play for.  

the facts at this point are that the offense lost two of it's best players due to injury and performed poorly due to that and a lack of depth, the rotation still performed capably if not decent, the defense was horrible, and the pen was capable but lacked depth.  There are a couple of players in particular that would need to be retained or replaced in order to 'break even' at this point in Iglesias and Cobb or like.  

And the areas of improvement seem fairly obvious to me although others might disagree with my assessment.  That disagreement is likely centered around the fact that the rotation doesn't need much.  Only to retain Cobb's production or get someone similar to do so.  And beyond that the focus should be on replacing Iglesias or like along with adding pen depth.  As well as adding at least a league average SS AND someone who can step into as another league average player to supplement the MIF or add depth by proxy to the OF and other positions.  It also shouldn't be discounted that the impact of a decent backup could pay dividends and shouldn't be that hard to accomplish.  Nor should additional pen depth, adding a decent starter in Cobb or his replacement, or a decent starting SS as well as MIF depth.  These are all things that can be achieved without a huge outlay of money or prospects.  

The main challenge will be retaining Iglesias or someone just as good for the back of the pen as well as potentially finding an additional arm for the rotation that is either as good as or slots in behind ohtani.  To me, the first of those is necessary and the second is gravy.  And the second depends on what you have to give up to get there and the law of diminishing returns.  

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8 hours ago, Torridd said:

I'm wondering what the 2022 team will need versus what the 2002 team had. Of course, we can't quantify heart and chemistry, but I don't think the 2002 team had great starters. We had a great bullpen and solid hitting. A championship team can have different components of success. In assessing the two teams, how far away is the '22 club from being as good as '02? This is not an assessment of our competition.

One thing the 2022 team has but the 2002 didn't are superstars. That team was good because it was deep; lots of good to very good players, but no great ones. Eckstein lead the hitters with a 4.5 fWAR, but seven other guys were 2.5 or higher. Washburn was the best pitcher at 4.2, with only Appier (2.6) above 2. But the bullpen was really deep, with Percival, Shields, F-Rod, Donnelly, and Weber.

People joke, but that team was super gritty, and comprised mostly of solid platoon and average regulars having good years, and depth. Lightning-in-a-bottle.

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6 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

Grit:

Erstad, Spiezio, Fulmer, Eckstein, Salmon, Glaus, Percival, K-Rod, etc.

The "grit' factor should not be underestimated but of course it's only one piece of a winning team. We battled all year in 2002. Fighting for the wild card in the last week of the season, one of our few "non-grit" players, Garrett Anderson, provided the 3-run homer that beat Texas in that Thursday day game and clinched a playoff spot for us. We had lost four games in a row and 6 out of 7 and another 'collapse' was in the cards. I almost ran my car off the road as I was listening to that game on the radio when GA hit that bomb.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX200209260.shtml

What makes GA a non-grit player?

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1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

One thing the 2022 team has but the 2002 didn't are superstars. That team was good because it was deep; lots of good to very good players, but no great ones. Eckstein lead the hitters with a 4.5 fWAR, but seven other guys were 2.5 or higher. Washburn was the best pitcher at 4.2, with only Appier (2.6) above 2. But the bullpen was really deep, with Percival, Shields, F-Rod, Donnelly, and Weber.

People joke, but that team was super gritty, and comprised mostly of solid platoon and average regulars having good years, and depth. Lightning-in-a-bottle.

From what I remember we had a lot of injuries in 2003, barring that, do you think we could have repeated?

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16 minutes ago, Torridd said:

From what I remember we had a lot of injuries in 2003, barring that, do you think we could have repeated?

Not sure about a repeat... lots of things went right in 02

 

But tons went wrong in 03. 

 

Tons went wrong in 04, too. That team should have been really, really good

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27 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not sure about a repeat... lots of things went right in 02

 

But tons went wrong in 03. 

 

Tons went wrong in 04, too. That team should have been really, really good

In 04, they won the division  and got knocked out of the playoffs, cuz they lost one of their best pitchers and one of their best hitters decided to be a jerk and got cut. Also, Glaus underperformed.

The investment before the 2004 season though is roughly what I am looking for in 2022. They added two starters, one TOR and one guy who was promising, and added two hitters, one HOF worthy and one on the upswing.

Now they really need three pitchers and one hitter (a SS), but this is the year to go for this.

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1 hour ago, Hubs said:

In 04, they won the division  and got knocked out of the playoffs, cuz they lost one of their best pitchers and one of their best hitters decided to be a jerk and got cut. Also, Glaus underperformed.

The investment before the 2004 season though is roughly what I am looking for in 2022. They added two starters, one TOR and one guy who was promising, and added two hitters, one HOF worthy and one on the upswing.

Now they really need three pitchers and one hitter (a SS), but this is the year to go for this.

three starters?  no they don't.  they need more pen pieces.  adding depth is the key.   

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2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not sure about a repeat... lots of things went right in 02

 

But tons went wrong in 03. 

 

Tons went wrong in 04, too. That team should have been really, really good

and that's how it'll have to be in 2022.  things will have to go right.  no matter what they do, it won't be a team built for 95 wins and if it it, that would be they either blew past the threshold (which they won't do) or they just decimated the you talent in the org via trade.  The 2004 team is probably a better example of what the Angels could be although I would argue that the base offense now is much better and has a lot more potential.  But the rotation could be similar.  And could turn a corner in 2023 with some you talent.  

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5 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

and that's how it'll have to be in 2022.  things will have to go right.  no matter what they do, it won't be a team built for 95 wins and if it it, that would be they either blew past the threshold (which they won't do) or they just decimated the you talent in the org via trade.  The 2004 team is probably a better example of what the Angels could be although I would argue that the base offense now is much better and has a lot more potential.  But the rotation could be similar.  And could turn a corner in 2023 with some you talent.  

I feel like the 04 team had great pitching. Dont remember if escobar was available for the playoffs. But we had colon and lackey, plus a great bullpen.

I think a lot of people have forgotten the offense woes. What should have been an insane offense, with tim salmon batting 3rd, ended up being Vlad, arthritis GA, and Glaus who came back a month early to try and make the playoffs, with Salmon throwing out the first pitch of game 1 vs boston on crutches.

Boston was kind of destined that year. But still. We should have been a juggernaut.

If GA didnt get old overnight, salmon and glaus didnt get hurt, and guillen didnt guillen, that team would have been feared in the playoffs.

Not to derail too much, but damn.... thinking of all the years trout was alone, and this year ohtani.... reminds me of the lean years w vlad, before he got some help. Basically 05 to 08 or so. 

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10 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I feel like the 04 team had great pitching. Dont remember if escobar was available for the playoffs. But we had colon and lackey, plus a great bullpen.

I think a lot of people have forgotten the offense woes. What should have been an insane offense, with tim salmon batting 3rd, ended up being Vlad, arthritis GA, and Glaus who came back a month early to try and make the playoffs, with Salmon throwing out the first pitch of game 1 vs boston on crutches.

Boston was kind of destined that year. But still. We should have been a juggernaut.

If GA didnt get old overnight, salmon and glaus didnt get hurt, and guillen didnt guillen, that team would have been feared in the playoffs.

Not to derail too much, but damn.... thinking of all the years trout was alone, and this year ohtani.... reminds me of the lean years w vlad, before he got some help. Basically 05 to 08 or so. 

the rotation was decent that year but not great.  Krod and Sheilds were stupid good.  They combined for almost 6 wins out of the pen.  The rest of the pen was decent.  But we're never going to see 2 guys eating 200 innings out of the pen.  It will take doing so with the top 3 guys which is why we need depth there.  

The starters FIP that year was 4.46 and they had 11.7 WAR.  This year it was 4.31 with 10.7 WAR.  

they had a 23.4 WAR offense (defense was slightly above avg.).  This year it was 13.1.  

I can't keep saying it because I think @Chuckster70 might ban me but the problem this year wasn't the rotation.  it was the offense and the defense.  the offense was hurt.  the defense sucked.  Yes, the rotation can improve but even if it stayed the same that wouldn't be horrific. 

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24 minutes ago, Slegnaac said:

2022 needs to reduce the number of inherited runners scored.

the Angels allow 135 inherited runners to score.  1st in baseball albeit they had the most chances.  By a lot btw.  365 runners inherited by the pen.  next closest was bmore with 335 and after that the cubs had 278. 

this is really interesting btw.  To have inherited almost 100 more runners vs. the third closest.  The brewers allow 152.    

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2 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

the Angels allow 135 inherited runners to score.  1st in baseball albeit they had the most chances.  By a lot btw.  365 runners inherited by the pen.  next closest was bmore with 335 and after that the cubs had 278. 

this is really interesting btw.  To have inherited almost 100 more runners vs. the third closest.  The brewers allow 152.    

I wonder if this speaks to Maddon’s management style.

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1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

the rotation was decent that year but not great.  Krod and Sheilds were stupid good.  They combined for almost 6 wins out of the pen.  The rest of the pen was decent.  But we're never going to see 2 guys eating 200 innings out of the pen.  It will take doing so with the top 3 guys which is why we need depth there.  

The starters FIP that year was 4.46 and they had 11.7 WAR.  This year it was 4.31 with 10.7 WAR.  

they had a 23.4 WAR offense (defense was slightly above avg.).  This year it was 13.1.  

I can't keep saying it because I think @Chuckster70 might ban me but the problem this year wasn't the rotation.  it was the offense and the defense.  the offense was hurt.  the defense sucked.  Yes, the rotation can improve but even if it stayed the same that wouldn't be horrific. 

Donnelly, Percival, and Webber were very good. 

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4 hours ago, Hubs said:

In 04, they won the division  and got knocked out of the playoffs, cuz they lost one of their best pitchers and one of their best hitters decided to be a jerk and got cut. Also, Glaus underperformed.

The investment before the 2004 season though is roughly what I am looking for in 2022. They added two starters, one TOR and one guy who was promising, and added two hitters, one HOF worthy and one on the upswing.

Now they really need three pitchers and one hitter (a SS), but this is the year to go for this.

Too many people do not give the Boston 04 team its respect.  Ortiz and Rameriz was much better than Vladdy and Anderson.

Martinez and Schilling was much better than any starter combination the Angeks can produce.

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