MLB Network Segment on Angels

[arch stanton]

Which goes back to the utter failure to produce anything worthwhile out of the drafts from '10-'15. it's a gaping hole that's just now slowly starting to get filled

[HanfordGuy]

1 hour ago, Slegnaac said:

You heard ir hete first!

Trout to the Eagels!

He would make a great defensive back.

[tdawg87]

You could say that again and again and again and again!

[HanfordGuy]

2 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

You could say that again and again and again and again!

My account has a stuttering problem.

[Angels 1961]

48 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think people get waaaaay too upset about the Angels failures from November to February. You really don’t become a good team by what you do in the winter. You become a good team by the way you develop your own players (minors and majors) during the season. 
 

The guys you acquire are a small piece of the puzzle and they’re probably going to balance each other out by some being good and some being bad. 
 

So you need to lift the floor that those guys sit on by having a lot of young guys from your system providing value. So you’ve always got an 85-win base and if your acquisitions work better one year it goes to 95.

There’s no way you can count on acquisitions lifting you enough if you have a 75-win base. 

I agree not 1 big front of rotation pitcher will put halos over the hump. Angels finally have some youth to work with in Adell, Marsh, Ward, Walsh, Fletcher plus young pitchers. Build even a bigger base and trade both Trout and Ohtani. 

[Homebrewer]

Just now, Angels 1961 said:

I agree not 1 big front of rotation pitcher will put halos over the hump. Angels finally have some youth to work with in Adell, Marsh, Ward, Walsh, Fletcher plus young pitchers. Build even a bigger base and trade both Trout and Ohtani. 

One of, if not the biggest, problem with Arte's ownership. He values "Star" power above all else. Having a big name draw has always been his priority, Having a viable MLB TEAM is beyond his scope of understanding. Many of us have railed and screamed about this for years. I dont see any hope of it changing as long as Artie is the owner.

Many long time fans have given up and moved on.

[Lhalo]

3 hours ago, gotbeer said:

Ever since Reagins canned Bane, the scouting went to shit.  And that was 11 years ago.  

I sat next to Bane at a game once and talked his ear off. I asked what it would take to come back and work for the Angels.

He said this to me word for word: "Tell Arte to pay me."

[gotbeer]

2 hours ago, Slegnaac said:

You heard ir hete first!

Trout to the Eagels!

He'd be a hell of a tight end for him.  @tdawg87

[Hubs]

Mark DeRosa sucks as a commentator. It was all low hanging fruit.

The Angels finally get out from under Pujols contract -- 240M and they say we're still top heavy. The ESPN and other East Coast based Journalists, and particularly DeRosa, have always wanted us to trade Trout to an east coast team, so they can watch him.

Neither Trout or Ohtani is being traded.

That all being said, they do raise some good player development points. Since Bane left, and then DiPoto took over for Reagins, the player development staff sucks. Think about the mainly home grown success from 2002 to 2009, and then see the lack of development. Other than Trout and Ohtani of course.

And I do not believe it's a top pitcher or two away.

I think they need to resign Iglesias.. Add at least two starters. The pitching health has been an issue, so I'd prioritize guys that have health.

But their offense was terrible for most of the second half, and they need to add hitters too. Marsh and Adell should take a step forward, but they need a Shortstop, and need depth in the infield.

[Angels 1961]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Stroman too, may end up being the best value of the bunch.

Stroman not signing with Angels.He will use Angels to drive up his price. He will sign back with Mets or SF

[Angels 1961]

4 hours ago, Blarg said:

I like how they put up the top pitchers in next year's free agent market and described all but Scherzer as a risk. Even Scherzer, at his age, is a risk. And yet all will command a large salary and the Angels could very well get the Zonk prize picking any one of them. 

Verlander is coming off of Tommy John, he isn't giving you 150 innings. Greinke has Weavered and his fast ball is falling off the radar. Scherzer looked like crap the last two outings which means age/innings caught up to him. Kershaw is a Dodger, they are not letting him walk and he isn't going to leave the Dodgers. 

So you have Ray and Noah. Choose one and over pay but hope to God they don't crater. Otherwise the same group next year is shaking their heads once again. 

But if one more of those assholes says trade Trout... 

Trout's injury, age and contract his value down. Would not be surprised if he ask to be traded after 6 years of losing with little hope for change.

[Make Angels Great Again]

19 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Mark DeRosa sucks as a commentator. It was all low hanging fruit.

The Angels finally get out from under Pujols contract -- 240M and they say we're still top heavy.

 

Because despite that, in 2022 we're paying 3 players a combined $101,688,095. With a lot more holes to fill.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Just looking at that number makes me realize how stupid signing Rendon was. Even if he plays up to his standard, it was just so unnecessary. 

[Homebrewer]

1 minute ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

Just looking at that number makes me realize how stupid signing Rendon was. Even if he plays up to his standard, it was just so unnecessary. 

Just another example of name power taking precedence over building a winning TEAM. 

[Hubs]

7 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

 

Because despite that, in 2022 we're paying 3 players a combined $101,688,095. With a lot more holes to fill.

I think winning teams have been built before that were top heavy. Dodgers or Yankees can have this kind of top heavy roster and no one bats an eye, and we're in the same market.

I say blow past the tax in the next two years and make this team a WS contender.

 

[notherhalo]

Mariners have 22M committed next season

[Make Angels Great Again]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

I think winning teams have been built before that were top heavy. Dodgers or Yankees can have this kind of top heavy roster and no one bats an eye, and we're in the same market.

I say blow past the tax in the next two years and make this team a WS contender.

 

 

The dodgers and yankees also spend a lot more than the angels because they're the dodgers and the yankees.

 

They also have had a better development structure in place for much longer. Especially the Dodgers. The Halos have been running around with their hair on fire trying desperately to win for the last several years.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

 

The dodgers and yankees also spend a lot more than the angels because they're the dodgers and the yankees.

 

They also have had a better development structure in place for much longer. Especially the Dodgers. The Halos have been running around with their hair on fire trying desperately to win for the last several years.

Agreed, so how do you fix it for next season?

They need a dominant ace starter who will give them 30+ starts.

They need a second healthy starter who will give them another 30+ starts.

They may even trade some of their young starters for a reliable 3rd starter to give them 25+ starts. Ohtani led the team with 23 starts. Can Sandoval, Suarez, Canning, Barria, C-Rod, etc. can be counted on to give them 70 solid starts?

They need a superior defender at short, and one who is an elite hitter, since Fletcher badly regressed with the bat, and you have two unproven corner OF with a lot of potential., and two superstars missed big chunks of the season.

They need depth all around the upper minors.

Only way to fix for 2022 and 2023 is through major league free agency and trades. Can also try to fix development issue, but it's not getting solved in one offseason.

[Angelsjunky]

Dan O'Dowd is smart and I generally agree with his take here. This is pretty sharp: "It's not just about spending money in this game, it's about developing an organization that operates wholly, from every aspect to make your big league team good."

That is so crucial. Every year we all try to pinpoint what is wrong and make suggestions (or rants) on what the Angels need to do to fix the various problems they have. But rarely do we touch upon the holistic nature of the organization, and certainly it doesn't seem that the Angels know how to address it, even recognize it. Hopefully Perry will be different, but that remains to be seen.

That said, to piggy-back on what @Jeff Fletchersaid, the key is to build an "85-win base" from within, and then supplement via free agency and trades, and hope for the best with injuries. Some orgs, like the Dodgers, can build a 95-win base, but that's really hard to do, and that 85-win base is well within reach for the Angels - not someday, but right now.

Before the season, it really looked like the Angels had close to that base, but then lost their two best position players for most of the year. There's no way to understate the devastating impact of losing a 9 WAR and 6 WAR player for 71% of the season (they played a total of 94 games out of 324 possible). 71% of 15 WAR is about 11 wins, which is a huge amount to make up with replacement players, and obviously it didn't work out.

As a side note, this also points to something someone said about the problem of "top-heavy" teams. Top-heavy doesn't necessarily mean not having a couple really expensive contracts, but it means that if you do, you have to balance it with cheap talent and have depth to draw from.

My sense is that the worst thing for the Angels to panic and go crazy in attempt to please Ohtani and Trout and improve appearances. That is, to make a bunch of trades--especially of young guys like Marsh and Detmers--and spend big to try to "fill the holes." What they should do is address specific needs from without, but remember what they have and build upon that:

• Three superstars in Trout, Ohtani, and Rendon
• A handful of cheap young pitchers in Sandoval, Suarez, Canning, Detmers, Rodriguez.
• Two very talented young outfielders who showed positive development this year and should continue to improve in Marsh and Adell.
• Some strong secondary players in Stassi, Walsh, and Fletcher.
• An improving farm system, with a bunch of at least decent depth in the high minors, and some higher upside prospects in the low minors.

That's a solid core, and a lot to build with. It is enough to do two things at once:

- Focus on improving the organization holistically, specifically through scouting and player development (including better treatment of minor leaguers). It also seems that Perry is going to take a look on medical and training procedures, as he said he is going to look at every injury closely, to see how it happens (please make Trout do some yoga, Perry!). And...

- Supplement the team via smart free agent acquisitions and maybe a trade or two, but with the long-term in mind, not just immediate impact. 

But leave the above core untouched. Don't trade Marsh or Adell, and certainly not Detmers and Rodriguez. Those four aren't problems that need to be addressed, but the first signs in years that some degree of progress is being made in player development.

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Angelsjunky

[Make Angels Great Again]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Agreed, so how do you fix it for next season?

They need a dominant ace starter who will give them 30+ starts.

They need a second healthy starter who will give them another 30+ starts.

They may even trade some of their young starters for a reliable 3rd starter to give them 25+ starts. Ohtani led the team with 23 starts. Can Sandoval, Suarez, Canning, Barria, C-Rod, etc. can be counted on to give them 70 solid starts?

They need a superior defender at short, and one who is an elite hitter, since Fletcher badly regressed with the bat, and you have two unproven corner OF with a lot of potential., and two superstars missed big chunks of the season.

They need depth all around the upper minors.

Only way to fix for 2022 and 2023 is through major league free agency and trades. Can also try to fix development issue, but it's not getting solved in one offseason.

Unless Arte spends his brains out to the point of losing money, I don't see it being fixed as soon as next year unless an incredible amount of things break the Angels' way. The Angels still have a ways to go to become a productive, competitive franchise.

[Hubs]

34 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Stroman not signing with Angels.He will use Angels to drive up his price. He will sign back with Mets or SF

You don't know this. Stop acting like you do. It's really annoying.

[Angels 1961]

20 minutes ago, Hubs said:

You don't know this. Stop acting like you do. It's really annoying.

From recent history tells me top pitchers do not sign with Angels. Last one was C.J. Wilson how'd that work out? Top rotation pitchers want to be with a contender and Angels far from that after 6 straight losing seasons. That is what should really be annoying Angels fans. Learn from halo history. Pujols , Hamilton and Rendon it's ANNOYING.

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, Homebrewer said:

One of, if not the biggest, problem with Arte's ownership. He values "Star" power above all else. Having a big name draw has always been his priority, Having a viable MLB TEAM is beyond his scope of understanding. Many of us have railed and screamed about this for years. I dont see any hope of it changing as long as Artie is the owner.

Many long time fans have given up and moved on.

Like I said, Arte Moreno is a cross between Barnum and Bailey, Vince McMahon, and Harold Hill (Music Man).

One problem with that Arte, those people are entertainment.  You have a franchise that is supposed to do what is necessary to achieve success.   Because in THIS business, it’s about the success to draw fans, and NOT declining sluggers.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[BTH]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think people get waaaaay too upset about the Angels failures from November to February. You really don’t become a good team by what you do in the winter. You become a good team by the way you develop your own players (minors and majors) during the season. 
 

The guys you acquire are a small piece of the puzzle and they’re probably going to balance each other out by some being good and some being bad. 
 

So you need to lift the floor that those guys sit on by having a lot of young guys from your system providing value. So you’ve always got an 85-win base and if your acquisitions work better one year it goes to 95.

There’s no way you can count on acquisitions lifting you enough if you have a 75-win base. 

That's correct, so why don't reporters like yourself ask the Angels more about their investment into internal development?

Do you all ask the Angels about what they are doing to improve their player development? Do you ask them why they were furloughing scouts? Or if they're gonna invest more into player development by increasing budgets so more personnel can be hired? If they're gonna build a huge analytics department or hire more scouts, etc?

[Angel Oracle]

48 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Dan O'Dowd is smart and I generally agree with his take here. This is pretty sharp: "It's not just about spending money in this game, it's about developing an organization that operates wholly, from every aspect to make your big league team good."

That is so crucial. Every year we all try to pinpoint what is wrong and make suggestions (or rants) on what the Angels need to do to fix the various problems they have. But rarely do we touch upon the holistic nature of the organization, and certainly it doesn't seem that the Angels know how to address it, even recognize it. Hopefully Perry will be different, but that remains to be seen.

That said, to piggy-back on what @Jeff Fletchersaid, the key is to build an "85-win base" from within, and then supplement via free agency and trades, and hope for the best with injuries. Some orgs, like the Dodgers, can build a 95-win base, but that's really hard to do, and that 85-win base is well within reach for the Angels - not someday, but right now.

Before the season, it really looked like the Angels had close to that base, but then lost their two best position players for most of the year. There's no way to understate the devastating impact of losing a 9 WAR and 6 WAR player for 71% of the season (they played a total of 94 games out of 324 possible). 71% of 15 WAR is about 11 wins, which is a huge amount to make up with replacement players, and obviously it didn't work out.

As a side note, this also points to something someone said about the problem of "top-heavy" teams. Top-heavy doesn't necessarily mean not having a couple really expensive contracts, but it means that if you do, you have to balance it with cheap talent and have depth to draw from.

My sense is that the worst thing for the Angels to panic and go crazy in attempt to please Ohtani and Trout and improve appearances. That is, to make a bunch of trades--especially of young guys like Marsh and Detmers--and spend big to try to "fill the holes." What they should do is address specific needs from without, but remember what they have and build upon that:

• Three superstars in Trout, Ohtani, and Rendon
• A handful of cheap young pitchers in Sandoval, Suarez, Canning, Detmers, Rodriguez.
• Two very talented young outfielders who showed positive development this year and should continue to improve in Marsh and Adell.
• Some strong secondary players in Stassi, Walsh, and Fletcher.
• An improving farm system, with a bunch of at least decent depth in the high minors, and some higher upside prospects in the low minors.

That's a solid core, and a lot to build with. It is enough to do two things at once:

- Focus on improving the organization holistically, specifically through scouting and player development (including better treatment of minor leaguers). It also seems that Perry is going to take a look on medical and training procedures, as he said he is going to look at every injury closely, to see how it happens (please make Trout do some yoga, Perry!). And...

- Supplement the team via smart free agent acquisitions and maybe a trade or two, but with the long-term in mind, not just immediate impact. 

But leave the above core untouched. Don't trade Marsh or Adell, and certainly not Detmers and Rodriguez. Those four aren't problems that need to be addressed, but the first signs in years that some degree of progress is being made in player development.

 

I could have liked, thanked, this’d, etc.

A perfect description of what has to happen

DO NOT trade any of the key young players for another year, and see how they continue to progress.

Focus on re-signing Iglesias and Cobb, and signing Stroman and a solid late innings guy.

That should stay within the budget, pretty much, without trading key young players.