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5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Congrats -- the year is 2021 and you're pointing to raw ERA for pitchers in a pitchers park...   The ballpark, the bullpen, the defense all played a part in those results.   Those four did however manage to provide innings so, I agree that was a strong point.

yeah, I was kind of lazy to just use ERA. My main point was that they at least provided innings. The Mariners knew who they were starting every day, for the most part. But yeah, the strength of their team was definitely the bullpen and luck.

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20 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Their main core of SP could be counted on almost every turn in the rotation to not be AWFUL:

Flexen: 31 GS, 179.2 IP, 3.61 ERA
Gilbert: 24 GS, 119.1 IP, 4.68 ERA
Gonzales: 25 GS, 143.1 IP, 3.96 ERA
Kikuchi: 29 GS, 157 IP, 4.41 ERA

The Angels were trotting out Bundy, Heaney, Naughton, Junk, Detmers, etc. at times.

It's a stretch to call those numbers "good."

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Just now, Trendon said:

yeah, it was kind of lazy to use ERA. My main point was that they at least provided innings. The Mariners knew who they were starting every day, for the most part. But yeah, the strength of their team was definitely the bullpen and luck.

Yeah -- that they definitely did and it's worthy of praise.  

Marco had an up and down year too -- he's normally way more consistent.   I actually think the SP will be a strength in the future providing guys like Hancock and Kirby pitch to their potential and can avoid injuries.  

Gilbert/Kirby/Hancock could be a very solid foundation on the mound for them.

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14 minutes ago, Trendon said:

I never called those numbers "good."

I said they were not awful.

They were 19th in starting pitching ERA, we were 22nd. And our starters had a better FIP and WAR. The biggest difference was the bullpen, where they ranked 8th and we were 24th. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=16,a

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4 hours ago, Trendon said:

Their main core of SP could be counted on almost every turn in the rotation to not be AWFUL:

Flexen: 31 GS, 179.2 IP, 3.61 ERA
Gilbert: 24 GS, 119.1 IP, 4.68 ERA
Gonzales: 25 GS, 143.1 IP, 3.96 ERA
Kikuchi: 29 GS, 157 IP, 4.41 ERA

The Angels were trotting out Bundy, Heaney, Naughton, Junk, Detmers, etc. at times.

You could have stopped at saying, the Angels were trotting out Junk. 

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8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

BTW, the Toronto Blue Jays....

Had to play at home in three different parks... 

183 run differential,115 OPS+, 113 ERA+.

Only won one more game.

 

Something else to consider.  While the Angels had to play against the two best National league teams (the Giants and the Dodgers, and Padres for that matter), the Blue Jays didn't have to play against the NL West and went 14-6 against the NL.  The Angels went 11-9 against the NL.  Also the Blue Jays got to play Baltimore (and many in their bandbox stadium) for 19 times.  Would have been nice to have the Angels playing Baltimore 19 times instead of the Giants, Dodgers and Padres.  Vlad Jr. loves playing in Baltimore, home run city.

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9 hours ago, Trendon said:

Their main core of SP could be counted on almost every turn in the rotation to not be AWFUL:

Flexen: 31 GS, 179.2 IP, 3.61 ERA
Gilbert: 24 GS, 119.1 IP, 4.68 ERA
Gonzales: 25 GS, 143.1 IP, 3.96 ERA
Kikuchi: 29 GS, 157 IP, 4.41 ERA

The Angels were trotting out Bundy, Heaney, Naughton, Junk, Detmers, etc. at times.

The moral of this story is that simply having average starters who don’t get hurt is way better than going to your 11th or 12th option. 

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12 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The moral of this story is that simply having average starters who don’t get hurt is way better than going to your 11th or 12th option. 

I might disagree about the 11th or 12th option.  Sure.  Health from your top guys is important, but we ended up with more value from the guys we trotted out than they did.  Even though their starters pitches 45 more innings.  We  had better depth.  They ended up with 90 wins because of their bullpen and luck.  Not because of their starting pitching.   Sometimes that depth is key to whether you succeed.   

The M's had 7 guys make 10 or more starts.  The Angels had 9.  One of whom was traded at the deadline for the halos.  Every rotation needs about 10 good to at least ok guys.

Pretty much ever team in baseball is gonna get at least a couple starts from their 11th and 12th guys.  It's how those 5-9 guys perform that makes a huge difference.    

 

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