2021-22 CBA Negotiation/Lockout Thread (DEAL IS AGREED TO)

[Junkballer]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

 

They actually want to lower the salary cap/threshold/whatever to $180 million?  You don’t go backwards.

 

I think you do when teams (well, one certain team) blows through the threshold like it was wet toilet paper.  The advantage doesn't just stop at the big club level but creates advantages in the farm system as well by limiting the amount of prospect capital needed to make trades and dump contracts.

[Lou]

4 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

This should help

So good. 

[Lou]

3 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Plus do other things more player friendly, like only have 3 game series with one off day per week, and like both having a tax threshold and having minimum payroll threshold.

Reasonable things

The owners are acting like they want to lock out players.

They actually want to lower the salary cap/threshold/whatever to $180 million?  You don’t go backwards.

No FA until age 29.5?   With regards to the young players who start MLB career in early 20s, again, you can’t go backwards.

So i was right.

[AngelsLakersFan]

14 hours ago, Junkballer said:

I think you do when teams (well, one certain team) blows through the threshold like it was wet toilet paper.  The advantage doesn't just stop at the big club level but creates advantages in the farm system as well by limiting the amount of prospect capital needed to make trades and dump contracts.

How does that work? The Dodgers blow past the threshold by $80mil so the fix is to lower the cap threshold?

[Junkballer]

26 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

How does that work? The Dodgers blow past the threshold by $80mil so the fix is to lower the cap threshold?

What has been reported is that MLB is not just wanting to lower the threshold but increase the tax penalties in each of four tiers as opposed to the current three.  25% at 180m + 3 more tiers vs the current 20%@210m, 32%@230m & 62.5%@250m for first year overages.  The percentages for the other 3 proposed tiers haven't been publicized as far as I know but it likely also includes increases in multi-year tax participants above the current escalation.  A tax that brings a higher percentage at an earlier and subsequent tiers will compound the penalty to ultra-high spending and mitigate blowing the threshold out of the water.  It will be interesting to see if under the new CBA the Dogs luxury tax participation this year will make them a 2nd year participant next year, resulting in higher penalties, or if the slate is wiped clean.  

In my mind it is clear that there has to be more competitive balance in the MLB.  Moving towards limiting both egregious overspenders and underspenders is one of the ways.  Maybe not a perfect solution but it does address the apparent unfairness of a team spending 190m more than the lowest payrolls and 88m+ over the average payroll.  Let the formula for team success ride more on scouting, drafting and development and less on the ability to spend.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, Junkballer said:

What has been reported is that MLB is not just wanting to lower the threshold but increase the tax penalties in each of four tiers as opposed to the current three.  25% at 180m + 3 more tiers vs the current 20%@210m, 32%@230m & 62.5%@250m for first year overages.  The percentages for the other 3 proposed tiers haven't been publicized as far as I know but it likely also includes increases in multi-year tax participants above the current escalation.  A tax that brings a higher percentage at an earlier and subsequent tiers will compound the penalty to ultra-high spending and mitigate blowing the threshold out of the water.  It will be interesting to see if under the new CBA the Dogs luxury tax participation this year will make them a 2nd year participant next year, resulting in higher penalties, or if the slate is wiped clean.  

In my mind it is clear that there has to be more competitive balance in the MLB.  Moving towards limiting both egregious overspenders and underspenders is one of the ways.  Maybe not a perfect solution but it does address the apparent unfairness of a team spending 190m more than the lowest payrolls and 88m+ over the average payroll.  Let the formula for team success ride more on scouting, drafting and development and less on the ability to spend.

I'm fine with increasing the penalties, but lowering the threshold feels like an attack on player salaries (it is in this case).

The solution has always been obvious, but it's not been popular amongst owners because it doesn't increase their profits. That is to drastically increase revenue sharing and tie compensation to winning.

The current MLB proposal is a shot across the bow of the MLBPA. In an environment where we've seen decreasing compensation for MLB's mid tier players and veterans amongst record profits for owners, MLB is proposing a 'solution' designed to reign in salaries for top players.  

[mmc]

 

[jsnpritchett]

8 minutes ago, mmc said:

 

"New York Yankees general manager Brian Cashman doesn’t know the parameters of what he has to spend.

“I have yet to have the conversation yet with what potentials, acknowledging that we have budget commitments already in play and depending on how the new collective bargaining agreement works out over the course of time, hopefully sooner than later,” he said."

 

[tdawg87]

Season over.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, mmc said:

 

That's fine. Trout's calf probably needs more time to heal 

[Taylor]

31 minutes ago, Jason said:

That's fine. Trout's calf probably needs more time to heal 

It'll give Chris Rodriguez some extra time to recover from his spine replacement surgery. 

[Second Base]

I usually look forward to hot stove season, but honestly, this one is probably going to suck. 

There's going to be a work stoppage, and a whole bunch of news that says nothing. You know the type "Player X is weighting multiple offers, wants to win."

Then right around January 15th they'll finally figure it out and a free agency spending spree will commence a week later after teams analyze the new agreement and identify the loopholes they can exploit. 

Pitchers and catchers report date will be pushed back to late February, and they'll shorten Spring Training by two weeks in order to make sure the season begins on time. 

[angelsnationtalk]

Mike Trout's career, aside from injuries, is really going to be altered by COVID and a lockout....... Jesus...

[Angels 1961]

If a work stoppage starts on Dec 2, I will not be posting anything in support of owners and players. 

[jsnpritchett]

2 hours ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Mike Trout's career, aside from injuries, is really going to be altered by COVID and a lockout....... Jesus...

Pretty sure it will affect all players' careers...But, yeah, Trout isn't going to come close to setting any major all-time career "counting stats" records at this point.

[Stradling]

38 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

If a work stoppage starts on Dec 2, I will not be posting anything

Fixed it for us

[Taylor]

The MLBPA should put an Angels bullpen pitcher at the head of negotiations. They're all really adept at avoiding strikes.

[Revad]

10 minutes ago, Taylor said:

The MLBPA should put an Angels bullpen pitcher at the head of negotiations. They're all really adept at avoiding strikes.

Plus they have plenty of balls…

well sort of

Edited October 25, 2021 by Revad

[arch stanton]

10 minutes ago, Taylor said:

The MLBPA should put an Angels bullpen pitcher at the head of negotiations. They're all really adept at avoiding strikes.

[eligrba]

How about making baseball more affordable for the fans?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I know, dumbass.

[Hubs]

I understand in negotiations, they won't come out with a super agreeable stance the first or even the third time they present terms.

But here's the main issues from the players standpoint according to this article from CBS. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-cba-negotiations-seven-important-questions-as-baseball-work-stoppage-appears-likely-this-winter/

1) Declining share of revenues for player salaries.

2) Service time manipulation.

And from the owner's standpoint

1) Revenue Split.

So it all comes down to money as always.

My Thoughts:

The owner's initial offer that was leaked says they were going to decrease the luxury tax line and there's no way the players go for that. Even in exchange for a salary floor. In the NBA the players are granted a significant but specific share of league revenues, I could see the owners agreeing to this, but only on ticket sales and media contracts.

The players would however likely get the following in exchange for a larger percent of revenue being split. 1) 5 years to free agency instead of the current 6. 2) Lower free agency threshold like at age 28 or 5 full years in the majors whichever comes sooner. The owners offered 29.5, but will have to come down in exchange for the players to agree. Owners will get a reduction in other areas.

Players would have to agree to a different arbitration schedule, probably one that raises the minimum salary significantly and likely gets a specific minimum salary for all players, instead of allowing teams to manipulate service time and renew contracts. Like $1M for rookies, $1.5M for sophomores, $2M for third year, then two years of salary arbitration. Owners would be paying younger players significantly more, so that should raise salaries across the board. Then, they'd also likely lock in the major league minimum for free agents at 50% of the league average from the year before or $2M. This year that would've been $2M, as 50% of the average would have been like 1.85M. They'll also institute salary arbitration eligibility at completion of 50% of year three, meaning, it will be harder for teams to manipulate service time. It's a variable limit now.

I could also see them limiting non-serious contract options, Bauer's deal angered a lot of the other owners. They'll likely eliminate player benefits and 40-man salaries from Luxury tax calculations, as the numbers paid to those guys is across the board equal.

They'll likely agree to trade draft picks in exchange for the draft being lengthened back to 30 rounds. Players were not happy with the 20 round draft. They'll want a say in this.

They'll also agree to larger playoff field, which owners really want, but maybe this will result in the elimination of unbalanced schedule. Players don't want to be uneven playing field, and playing nearly 1/2 of your schedule against four teams in your division results in certain teams never gets some players to the playoffs, so that's a minor point of contention.

One other point that isn't getting a lot of coverage, certain owners will push for player punishments for cheating schemes. There wasn't a way to punish the 2017-2021 Astros, so they cheat with impunity, and this will be spelled out in the next CBA.

 

 

 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

I'll tell you all right now, no matter what happens it's the owners fault.

[AngelsLakersFan]

20 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I could also see them limiting non-serious contract options, Bauer's deal angered a lot of the other owners. They'll likely eliminate player benefits and 40-man salaries from Luxury tax calculations, as the numbers paid to those guys is across the board equal.

I could see this being something the players offer in exchange for a reduction in the luxury tax. Something to essentially balance it out.

Quote

They'll likely agree to trade draft picks in exchange for the draft being lengthened back to 30 rounds. Players were not happy with the 20 round draft. They'll want a say in this.

Really? I've gotten the vibe from the players that they don't give a shit about the draft. They have bigger fish to fry than to give up concessions for this.

Quote

They'll also agree to larger playoff field, which owners really want, but maybe this will result in the elimination of unbalanced schedule. Players don't want to be uneven playing field, and playing nearly 1/2 of your schedule against four teams in your division results in certain teams never gets some players to the playoffs, so that's a minor point of contention.

A decrease in the quality of the product in exchange for more money is something both sides will have no problem agreeing to, the question is just what the players ask in return. I don't see the unbalanced schedule being tied in to this. I think you have it backwards, the players love the unbalanced schedule because it reduces travel. Losing an unbalanced schedule is a big hit to the players in season quality of life, especially to western teams.

Quote

One other point that isn't getting a lot of coverage, certain owners will push for player punishments for cheating schemes. There wasn't a way to punish the 2017-2021 Astros, so they cheat with impunity, and this will be spelled out in the next CBA.

Wont happen. The owners are going to ask the all to take pay cuts then try and suspend them without pay for cheating?

 

[Inside Pitch]

[AngelsLakersFan]

26 minutes ago, Hubs said:

1) Declining share of revenues for player salaries.

2) Service time manipulation.

These are the only real issues. Front offices have gotten smarter. They manipulate the players clock, and take advantage of the relatively low pay the first several years to lock players into well under market value deals that keep them from hitting free agency until they are older. Once they finally hit FA the owners have realized they aren't good bets to keep producing and don't sign them.

Then the owners offer to lower team salaries, allow players free agency at 30 and say that a work stoppage is imminent because the players aren't reasonable.