OK Perry, time to sell

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

I totally agree.  That's actually my point (and I see that @Lou agrees): they should be very careful about offering him a Q.O. if it comes to that point. Sure, it'd be great to get a compensation pick in the draft if he turned it down--but I wouldn't want to risk him saying, "yes, I will gladly accept $19M!"

imo, he would absolutely accept it.

[WicketMaiden]

17 minutes ago, Lou said:

imo, he would absolutely accept it.

He would be crazy not to, it's more than double his highest ever annual salary. Two years of salary for one year of work, then hit FA again next year. Who wouldn't? 

[Dtwncbad]

37 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Ok.  I give up.  I truly don't understand the point of continuing to argue semantics when it's crystal clear what he means.  We'll see how it all plays out.

Yes we will see.  Also, I find it kind of annoying how people cite his specific comment about really wanting to reach free agency but then totally ignore that he also openly said he would consider any extension the Twins presented to him.

The common sense conclusion based on these two comments is he is going to do what is best for him, and is open to that being either free agency or an extension situation.

But yes we will see.

[WicketMaiden]

@jsnpritchett @Dtwncbad

I have no idea what you two are actually disagreeing about, but if you could both just fast forward to the ad hominem attacks that would be great thanks. 

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

@jsnpritchett @Dtwncbad

I have no idea what you two are actually disagreeing about, but if you could both just fast forward to the ad hominem attacks that would be great thanks. 

So you saying you are open to an extension of this discussion.

[Angelsjunky]

3 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

It's going to be the same shit next year. Arte will put a cap on the payroll, Minasian will be forced to build a "winner" with about $30 million, we'll go in to 2022 with hope that everything can go our way, then AJ will make this thread again.

It's fucking groundhog day with this shit organization and I'm done with it.

No, you're not. Trust me. You'll be back with the rest of us, rinse and repeat. Actually, being "done with it" is part of the groundhog day effect.

1 hour ago, AngelStew43 said:

Drafting 20 pitchers is rebuild mode

Drafting 19 college pitchers is push em through the system as quickly as possible, most are ready for high-A or AA.  

Get em to the show by 2023, while Trout, Ohtani, Rendon, and Walsh still have prime seasons left. 

I don't see it as rebuild mode, just recognizing two things:

1) The major league team has an excellent core of position players.

2) The farm was much weaker in the pitching department than hitting. I'd say about two-thirds to three-quarters of our top 20 prospects--before the draft--are hitters, all middle infielders or outfielders. Of the top 20 (imo), the only pitchers that definitely belong are Detmers, C-Rod, Kochanowicz, and Daniel. The rest are fringe, somewhere in the grab-bag range of #15-40.

Minasian recognized this, and instantly added one guy who is top 5 in our system, and another two or three guys who you could make an argument are in the top 20.

 

[GoodTimesGoneBad]

QO is always a gamble but he might feel like he can top what Hendriks just got. He’s younger and has been more consistent over his career. Especially pitching almost his whole career in Great American. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

No, you're not. Trust me. You'll be back with the rest of us, rinse and repeat. Actually, being "done with it" is part of the groundhog day effect.

I don't see it as rebuild mode, just recognizing two things:

1) The major league team has an excellent core of position players.

2) The farm was much weaker in the pitching department than hitting. I'd say about two-thirds to three-quarters of our top 20 prospects--before the draft--are hitters, all middle infielders or outfielders. Of the top 20 (imo), the only pitchers that definitely belong are Detmers, C-Rod, Kochanowicz, and Daniel. The rest are fringe, somewhere in the grab-bag range of #15-40.

Minasian recognized this, and instantly added one guy who is top 5 in our system, and another two or three guys who you could make an argument are in the top 20.

 

If detmers and bachman work out, even as simply mid rotation types, I think this team is suddenly poised to be very good.

Then use the money on a few pen arms. Suddenly (and afforfably) this team looks a lot different.

[totdprods]

9 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

If detmers and bachman work out, even as simply mid rotation types, I think this team is suddenly poised to be very good.

Then use the money on a few pen arms. Suddenly (and afforfably) this team looks a lot different.

Very risky to expect either to perform to that level right out of the gate, and how long can we afford to see how long it takes for them to develop? We all thought the same of Canning and here we are seeing him struggling the most and demoted in his third year. It took Sandoval and Suarez three years.

If we wait three years for Detmers and Bachman, Trout might be 32 and Ohtani on another team…

There’s a really tricky balancing act here that Minasian needs to pull off in a way no recent Angels GM has. 

[jsnpritchett]

It's not over yet today, but it's obviously not looking good.  I'm still concerned that if the Angels do go something like 5-2 against the Twins and Rockies, Arte and/or Minasian are going to want to buy and stay in the race for that 2nd WC.  Really hoping that is not what happens.

[failos]

[Torridd]

6 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

It's not over yet today, but it's obviously not looking good.  I'm still concerned that if the Angels do go something like 5-2 against the Twins and Rockies, Arte and/or Minasian are going to want to buy and stay in the race for that 2nd WC.  Really hoping that is not what happens.

Why don't you want the team to be buyers? We're not terrible. 

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, Torridd said:

Why don't you want the team to be buyers? We're not terrible. 

I've said all along that if the Angels are acquiring guys who are controllable beyond this year, I'm ok with that.  What I mean is that I don't want them to trade even marginal assets for rentals, given that it is a complete longshot to make the playoffs this year--and, even if they did, it would almost certainly be as a 2nd WC, so a road play-in game.  No thanks.

[ten ocho recon scout]

46 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Very risky to expect either to perform to that level right out of the gate, and how long can we afford to see how long it takes for them to develop? We all thought the same of Canning and here we are seeing him struggling the most and demoted in his third year. It took Sandoval and Suarez three years.

If we wait three years for Detmers and Bachman, Trout might be 32 and Ohtani on another team…

There’s a really tricky balancing act here that Minasian needs to pull off in a way no recent Angels GM has. 

Im not expecting either to solidify things next year. But in 3 years I think its realistic.

As far as worrying about Ohtani leaving, thats out of our control. And Trout in all honesty doesnt matter.... hes stuck w us.... 

My main point being, there is no real "just throw money at it" answer. I would be all for it... but what FA pitchers are we going to get this winter?

We could trade someone... but I dont think we have the pieces to bring back a legit SP, let alone 2. 

We still have Ohtani for 2 more years. If we dont resign him. 

But we also need to budget for that contract....

[ten ocho recon scout]

19 minutes ago, failos said:

Watch us throw our entire pen into a "mystery bag" that people get if they buy our old push lawn mower.

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, ettin said:

How does it feel to Wantz?

[totdprods]

22 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Im not expecting either to solidify things next year. But in 3 years I think its realistic.

As far as worrying about Ohtani leaving, thats out of our control. And Trout in all honesty doesnt matter.... hes stuck w us.... 

My main point being, there is no real "just throw money at it" answer. I would be all for it... but what FA pitchers are we going to get this winter?

We could trade someone... but I dont think we have the pieces to bring back a legit SP, let alone 2. 

We still have Ohtani for 2 more years. If we dont resign him. 

But we also need to budget for that contract....

Technically you're right, but the Angels really can't squander these two and their careers here...this 'Trout Window' is at it's zenith. 

And I agree 100%, throwing money at FA is not the answer either. There isn't a frontline arm headed to FA this winter that would fix our problems anyway. Free agent relief money is almost the worst way to spend free agent money as well. I'd rather that money go towards Ohtani as you mentioned.

They're down to building from within, or trades. Jo Adell and Griffin Canning are in AAA and Brandon Marsh, Reid Detmers, and potentially Bachman could theoretically leapfrog them on the depth charts at any time. Between the others under control for 2022, there's room to improve the rotation with those assets without hurting the MLB team now. Maybe it's Hendricks and Kimbrel (picking up his option) or maybe it's Atlanta for something like Kyle Muller and Will Smith (and hopefully something else or in a lesser package). Maybe Minnesota for Berrios and Rogers.

Land a frontline arm in a trade, make a modest investment in a quality mid-tier FA arm this winter, move some pending FAs and promote some kids and see what happens. 

Ohtani, frontline arm in a trade, Sandoval, Suarez, FA, and Detmers, Rodriguez, Barria for depth. That's plenty without Canning.
Upton, Trout, Marsh with Ward, Lund, Martinez, Wilson/FA as 4th OF/depth. That's sufficient without Adell
Walsh, Fletcher, Rendon, and a stopgap SS or Rengifo for one of the uber-prospects to arrive. I'd even consider Fletcher at SS and Stefanic at 2B if he impresses.
Bullpen is only glaring void - ideally we have a couple from within, a couple received in trade, a couple via FA.
 

Edited July 20, 2021 by totdprods

[Angel Oracle]

Nothing matters, if the pen duplicates in 2022 the same since the mid 2010s.

[GoodTimesGoneBad]

Gausman and Stroman in the off-season would be a win. Get a couple Ty Buttreys in trades this year and bring up Bachman to close next year. The offense will be fine. 

[Dtwncbad]

49 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

I've said all along that if the Angels are acquiring guys who are controllable beyond this year, I'm ok with that.  What I mean is that I don't want them to trade even marginal assets for rentals, given that it is a complete longshot to make the playoffs this year--and, even if they did, it would almost certainly be as a 2nd WC, so a road play-in game.  No thanks.

I don’t care if they decide to trade “marginal assets” for key players that could help them have a shot at the playoffs this year.

The fact is marginal assets are never going to get you premium players in trades, so trading marginal assets will not keep the Angels from having what they need to acquire premium, controllable players.

And if they are “marginal” prospects, then they are very unlikely to ever be significant major league players in your own teams future.

The only trades I don’t want to see are those where the Angels trade premium prospects for a rental, and there is basically zero chance that they do that.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

If detmers and bachman work out, even as simply mid rotation types, I think this team is suddenly poised to be very good.

Then use the money on a few pen arms. Suddenly (and afforfably) this team looks a lot different.

Pen is a big IF.

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don’t care if they decide to trade “marginal assets” for key players that could help them have a shot at the playoffs this year.

The fact is marginal assets are never going to get you premium players in trades, so trading marginal assets will not keep the Angels from having what they need to acquire premium, controllable players.

And if they are “marginal” prospects, then they are very unlikely to ever be significant major league players in your own teams future.

The only trades I don’t want to see are those where the Angels trade premium prospects for a rental, and there is basically zero chance that they do that.

Ok, you and I clearly disagree on strategy for this season (and other things).  And that's ok.  "Marginal" prospects at least have some future value.  A rental doesn't.  Having a volume of replacement-level or better guys in the system is generally a good thing.  Look at the Angels system this year.  Until Marsh came back, they quite literally didn't have an OF they felt comfortable calling up in the entire system.  Even if you still have assets to acquire a premium guy, you still need to have some marginal prospects to fill the void of injured guys, etc.  If you trade premium prospects for premium assets AND trade marginal prospects for rentals, then you have absolutely zero depth in your system.  My point is that trading "marginal" guys for someone who might give you a 5% increased chance to snag that second WC slot is just silly--in my opinion.  Again, totally fine if you disagree.

[Dtwncbad]

10 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Ok, you and I clearly disagree on strategy for this season (and other things).  And that's ok.  "Marginal" prospects at least have some future value.  A rental doesn't.  Having a volume of replacement-level or better guys in the system is generally a good thing.  Look at the Angels system this year.  Until Marsh came back, they quite literally didn't have an OF they felt comfortable calling up in the entire system.  Even if you still have assets to acquire a premium guy, you still need to have some marginal prospects to fill the void of injured guys, etc.  If you trade premium prospects for premium assets AND trade marginal prospects for rentals, then you have absolutely zero depth in your system.  My point is that trading "marginal" guys for someone who might give you a 5% increased chance to snag that second WC slot is just silly--in my opinion.  Again, totally fine if you disagree.

Two questions:

1). Do you think the Angels are ever really going to be two replacement level players away from having a championship caliber team?

2). If they are, don’t you think they could find a way to acquire a couple of replacement level players to be a championship caliber team?

Listen, my number one objective in this trade period is to be aggressive in trying to acquire a starting pitcher that would be top half of the rotation for multiple controllable seasons.

Thats a tough project and they may not be able to do it regardless of how hard they try.

But entirely separately, I am fine if they trade “marginal assets” to hang in there for this season.  You never know what could happen if you sneak into the playoffs somehow.

To me, that would be well spent “marginal assets”. . . 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Dtwncbad

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

Two questions:

1). Do you think the Angels are ever really going to be two replacement level players away from having a championship caliber team?

2). If they are, don’t you think they could find a way to acquire a couple of replacement level players to be a championship caliber team?

Listen, my number one objective in this trade period is to be aggressive in trying to acquire a starting pitcher that would be top half of the rotation for multiple controllable seasons.

Thats a tough project and they may not be able to do it regardless of how hard they try.

But entirely separately, I am fine if they trade “marginal assets” to hang in there for this season.  You never know what could happen if you sneak into the playoffs somehow.

To me, that would be well spent “marginal assets”. . . 

I don't see the need to answer either of the questions, as that's not something I really addressed.  Look, you're fine with them making trades for rentals to stay in the race, and I think it's a silly idea.  I don't think either one of us is going to change the other's mind--and, again, that's totally fine.  We don't have to agree on every strategy--though I will say that I agree with your number one objective if it's achievable!

[Jason]

Looks like the offense is going to slump their way out of any hopes of contention this week. Sell what you can