The Tony Reagins scapegoat vindication thread

[Ohtaniland]

Reagins was responsible for overseeing the Angel farm system, with seven affiliates that include a Dominican Summer League club and developmental academy in San Pedro de Macoris, Dominican Republic. The Angels' farm system posted winning records in four of the six seasons (2003-05-06-07) and was named "Minor League Organization of the Year" in 2003 by The Sporting News. It produced players such as Howie Kendrick, Reggie Willits, Robb Quinlan, Kendry Morales, Erick Aybar, Jeff Mathis, Mike Napoli, Jered Weaver and Joe Saunders – all of whom made significant impacts on the 2007 American League West Division champion team. Minor League News named the Angels "2007 Farm System of the Year."
 

 ^{Reagins signed Torii Hunter. He traded Kotchman for Teixeira. The get rid of Napoli deal was at the behest of Scioscia.}

 

^{Has Dipoto accomplished anything as our Angels GM that puts us above the rest. I don't think that any of the Reagins teams were chasing Seattle.}
 
 

[Docwaukee]

The fact that Reagins got fired after bringing in Wells makes me think that it was he who made the deal.  Perhpas with input from Arte and MS yet I think Reagins is still around otherwise.  After an 86-76 season he was let go.  To me, that means they just didn't like the direction that Reagins was leading the team.  A year later, the farm system is ranked near the bottom and the entire pitching staff that was supposed to be great ends up a wreck. 

 

Jerry Dipoto still has a job because he is cleaning up someone's mess.  We will know very soon just how much of what has happened with Albert and Josh is on JD. Yes, JD has made mistakes, but the state of the franchise was at a much different point as JD entered than when Reagins did.  Granted, JD hasn't helped as of yet and may not, but he deserves more time.

 

I like JD's philosophy and intent yet the results haven't been there.  I think he's given one more season to right the ship and get a winning team on the field.  Still, I can't fault him for the poor play of Hamilton and Pujols yet it may lead to his dismissal nonetheless. 

 

When the two biggest FA's of the last two offseasons come in and fail then you don't have any room for error otherwise.  Those, to me are forgivable as they are as much org moves as anything that can be pinned on a gm.  However, the Blanton, Greinke, and Madson moves added on to those have made for quite the catastrophe. 

 

All except the Blanton deal have been deemed reasonable at the time yet for absolutely none of them to work has to make the powers that be scratch their heads. 

 

JD's future with this org will be very much reliant upon Albert and Josh's performance during 2014.  Perhaps unfairly so, but if these two don't perform as expected next year and another losing season occurs, then he is gone. 

 

These two underperforming sluggers hold the key.  IF they do well, then the team will win and he will get another year to try and improve the team. 

[Angel Oracle]

As far as I'm concerned, this falls on a lot of people with the org, each of whom panicked when one move failed, and then rushed to make up for it and caused another bad move to be made, rinse, repeat.

Arte, JeDi, Reagins, Scioscia, the coaches, the scouts, Eddie Bane, and the vast underperforming players (not all of them) ALL get blame.

This whole org is a disaster! Tell me we aren't the Mets and Cubs right now.

[Docwaukee]

I honestly don't get the theory that people think anyone from the current regime 'panicked' the franchise to this point. 

 

Free Agent signings and large contracts are not the devil.  Yes, they are risky and the back end usually doesn't work out all that well, but they can work out if done properly. 

 

There is no reason to believe that the front end of these FA deals should result in anything close to what they have for this team. 

 

The major league squad had holes to fill yet no viable internal options to fill them.  Filling them externally is not a dumb move if you have the financial resources to do so.  It's a sound and often used phenomena and one that if used properly can lead to a productive team. 

 

Paying a player that is beyond club control what they are worth on the market happens all the time.

People us the Cardinals as an example but look at some of their contracts

They owe Wainwright 100mil for his 32-36yo seasons

They signed Holliday thru age 37

and Molina thru age 35

 

Other teams:

Joey Votto will be 40 in the last year of his deal

Tulo's deal is 1 yr off from hamilton

the same for mauer

fielder

etc.

 

The list of the highest paid players is filled with guys being paid 20+ mil into their late 30's.  Is that a good thing?  No.  But it's working for others as most of those players are productive on the front end. 

 

Point is, the halos can afford 2-3 contracts where the back end isn't very productive yet to think that any front office would anticipate not really getting any production from those players on the front end is just asinine. 

 

These deals were meant to bridge a gap that would allow young players from a revamped farm to step in and take the place of unproductive over paid vets in 2017. 

 

It hasn't worked, but what are you gonna do going into 2012 with a staff that was touted as the best in baseball that fell apart.  Rebuild?

And then in 2013, a year after the emergence of Trout and the signing of Pujols?  Rebuild? 

Are you going to rebuild now and waste what could be some of the best years of a player that appears to be a generational talent because guys that were supposed to perform otherwise aren't even sniffing the low end of their career numbers?

 

No.  You continue to shuffle and hope those guys can come around. 

 

It's not a pretty scenario if it doesn't work, but the panic move is to scrap the whole plan after less than half a season of it not working. 

[YouthofToday]

These are obviously hindsight observations and things could be completely different but Beltre's production in this lineup would be sick.

No Wells either would've been absolutely awesome.

Hindsight? I blasted the organization at the time for my signing Beltre. I was quite livid at the Wells deal and called for the firing of Reagins within days.

Yes, I'm hardly perfect with observations (I favored the Hamilton deal). However, the Beltre and Wells decisions were simply atrocious at the time and look even worse now.

[Brent Maguire]

Hindsight? I blasted the organization at the time for my signing Beltre. I was quite livid at the Wells deal and called for the firing of Reagins within days.

Yes, I'm hardly perfect with observations (I favored the Hamilton deal). However, the Beltre and Wells decisions were simply atrocious at the time and look even worse now.

I wasn't pointing you out YOT. 

 

I wanted Beltre too and definitely didn't like the Wells deal. I thought Wells would be productive but we all know how that turned out. 

[mulwin444]

Reagins oversaw the Wells for Napoli/Rivera deal, assuming one of the worst deals in the MLB, one that had listed as "untradeable" by analysts, and asked for no additional minor league talent or cash back in return.

 

This was one of the worst organizational moves in franchise history and universally panned (except for a few on the board)

 

I'm not pining for the Reagins' era...

[Turd Ferguson]

It seems to me that Reagins is a big part of the reason why the cupboard is so bare.  If anything, I think the struggles now can be attributed to us trying to get out from under the Reagins era.

[Ohtaniland]

Why didn't we sign Beltre? Because Arte probably didn't authorize it. Why did we trade Napoli for Wells? Because Beltre signed with Texas on January 6th and that left Reagins scrambling to get a coveted bat. Scioscia knew that pitchers and catchers were due to show up in a month and he wanted Mathis in and Napoli out. I'm sure Scioscia had Arte's ear and thus an 11th hour deal was done. The Wells deal was an internal organizational mistake and Reagins took one for the team. Why doesn't Dipoto catch the same blame with the Pujols and Hamilton deals? Those deals are much worse.

[Torridd]

Why didn't we sign Beltre? Because Arte probably didn't authorize it. Why did we trade Napoli for Wells? Because Beltre signed with Texas on January 6th and that left Reagins scrambling to get a coveted bat. Scioscia knew that pitchers and catchers were due to show up in a month and he wanted Mathis in and Napoli out. I'm sure Scioscia had Arte's ear and thus an 11th hour deal was done. The Wells deal was an internal organizational mistake and Reagins took one for the team. Why doesn't Dipoto catch the same blame with the Pujols and Hamilton deals? Those deals are much worse.

I also think Reagins got a bum rap. You just get tired of arguing with these guys after awhile. Besides Wells and Abreu, I think he did pretty well. Kazmir and Fuentes were good bets that didn't work out. See what happened with Rodney the year after.

 

I don't think Reagins has much to do with what's happening now. The starters and offense were pretty good when he was here. The bullpen was his biggest problem.

[Ohtaniland]

We all remember how much Scioscia loved Abreu. I think Reagins was a victim of his own kindness to Scioscia. Then Scioscia quietly let him take the rap.

[Torridd]

I don't know who to blame for the second Abreu extension though. It made no sense to give him the at-bats, but there he was trotting out to play.

[Jay]

Dipoto has an idea of what he's doing, outside of signing Blantana.

 

I love how people think Dipoto has a clue when there really is no evidence to suggest that he does.  He's probably an excellent talker though.

[Ohtaniland]

I love how people think Dipoto has a clue when there really is no evidence to suggest that he does. He's probably an excellent talker though.

The Shamwow guy was also a good talker.

[405z06]

The Angels could lose every game the rest of the year, and that would not make Reagins any less of an moran. There is only one person on the planet that would have willingly traded for Vernon Wells. And to make matters worse, he ate almost the whole contract AND gave up talent return. No amount of bad luck and bad play on Dipotos watch can change that  

[Torridd]

I don't think Reagins is close to Erin Moran.

[Brent Maguire]

I love how people think Dipoto has a clue when there really is no evidence to suggest that he does. He's probably an excellent talker though.[/

I think he's done a good job of finding guys like Vargas, Hanson and Iannetta without giving up much.

I still believe that the Hamilton and Pujols deals were 99% Arte's decision.

[Ohtaniland]

Wells wasn't 99% Arte's final decision after listening to Scioscia whine about Napoli? Think about it.

[T.G.]

It's funny to see all the Beltre love in this thread... I'm quite certain the overwhelming majority of people on this site were against Beltre because they were convinced he only performed in contract years.  I remember reading how most thought he never lived up to his contract in Seattle, and blah, blah, blah...

[405z06]

I don't think Reagins is close to Erin Moran.

 

Get a brain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ohtaniland]

It's funny to see all the Beltre love in this thread... I'm quite certain the overwhelming majority of people on this site were against Beltre because they were convinced he only performed in contract years. I remember reading how most thought he never lived up to his contract in Seattle, and blah, blah, blah...

There were many posters here that suggested that Arte was cheap because he didn't sign Beltre, Crawford, Soriano and Cliff Lee.

[stormngt]

Don't forget the haren trade.

We might have one of the best rotations in baseball right now and for the next few years if arte could hop in the delorean and prevent reagins from being born

Yes, but we would have sacrificed three seasons.  The purpose of the Haren trade was to make us competitive right away.  Haren did that, we just didn't win it!   (the division).  We would have been under 500 each of the last three years had it not been for the Haren trade.  In hindsight, it would have been best not to make the trade, but at the time, it was a good trade.  Haren pitched well for us for most of his tenure.  At the time most analyst felt the Angels ripped the Dbacks off.

[stormngt]

Did haren ever take us to the playoffs? He never put us over the top at any point. And he only performed for two seasons and we were paying him 15 million each year.

Meanwhile, Corbin is 9-0 and the dbacks have him under club control for several seasons for dirt cheap. Skaggs will be at least a serviceable major league pitcher, as well. Reagins essentially mortgaged the future to bolster a mediocre ball club that wasn't going anywhere. And tah dah, here we are three years later and haren is gone and we still suck.

Just because a player performs well for a while, doesn't make a trade a good one. It has to be looked at in context.

You can argue that the Angels should have rebuilt in 2010 instead of making the trade.  That is fair.  However, we were competitive we were knocked out of the playoffs on the second to the last day (I believe that is correct) in 2011 and 2012.  Most fans would have called for the GM's head for not making an effort to win.  

 

The Haren trade in perspective was a good trade.  It was only a bad trade in hindsight.

[stormngt]

Beltre is another good point. 

 

Obviously, things could be different but if we got Beltre and prevented the Rangers from having Napoli AND we had no Wells, who knows what spot the Angels would've been in then and now. 

 

That move might have single handedly changed this division around. 

Beltre might be the worst non signee for the Angels in the last decade.  Our situation would have been completely different had we ante up and signed him.

 

However, I will also argue this board was split about 50/50 in signing him at the time.  So once again, hindsight is great isn't it?  To bad real decisions do not have hindsight in the decision making process.

[stormngt]

Reagins was responsible for overseeing the Angel farm system, with seven affiliates that include a Dominican Summer League club and developmental academy in San Pedro de Macoris, Dominican Republic. The Angels' farm system posted winning records in four of the six seasons (2003-05-06-07) and was named "Minor League Organization of the Year" in 2003 by The Sporting News. It produced players such as Howie Kendrick, Reggie Willits, Robb Quinlan, Kendry Morales, Erick Aybar, Jeff Mathis, Mike Napoli, Jered Weaver and Joe Saunders – all of whom made significant impacts on the 2007 American League West Division champion team. Minor League News named the Angels "2007 Farm System of the Year."

 

  ^{The get rid of Napoli deal was at the behest of Scioscia.}

 

 

 

 

Can you please show me any evidence that this was true?  i know there has been speculation, but is there anything concrete?  Outside of your opinion?