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1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

I agree with some of this even though I would have left both starters in; however, the way he used Rodriguez and Suarez the past two games is absolutely baffling to me.

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is it reasonable to bring in Iglesias in a non-save situation?  Sure.  Yet for some reason he doesn't perform well in those spots.  Is that an aberration or a small sample?  Maybe.  But we all know the definition of insanity.  

Every manager has strengths and weaknesses.  To me, I don't think Joe manages a pen well.   Just my opinion.  But a GM has to know those strengths and weaknesses and much like a manager has to put his players in a position to succeed, a GM has to put his manager in a position to succeed.  I question whether Minassian has enough clout to tell Joe what to do or even move some players around in a way that he thinks will make Joe better but that's probably a whole other discussion.  

The bottom line is that the bullpen lacks talent.  You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.  Yes I think Joe could be doing better with the way he handles them but they're just not good and there isn't a manager on the planet that could make them so.  

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3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

69 pitches.

It was unsuportable decision in any way outside of an injury. 

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You can sorta get away with a not so great pen as long as you've got at least a couple guys who rarely fail at their job.  It's all about leverage.  Some guy blows up and allows four runs when you're down by 5 already, then so what.  Or if a guy has a bad outing when you're up by 4 and lets a team back in, at least if your top two or three are really good then you can salvage the situation.  

So the GM doesn't know his manager's tendencies or that the SP was gonna be mediocre at best? 

The thing that's most frustrating is that a good bullpen can be constructed from very little in an off season.  Yet the Angels were asleep at the wheel and even with additions on the last day before the start of the season they still suck.  It's pathetic.  

And most of all, it's demoralizing.  To the fans.  To the players.  Losing games you have a strong chance to win in the later innings.  Giving your offense zero chance to come back.  Knowing that most of the time you match up bullpens and the game is close, you're gonna lose.       

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11 minutes ago, Blarg said:

69 pitches.

It was unsuportable decision in any way outside of an injury. 

and as you've made mention of in the past, imagine how gassed they're gonna be in August.  For every inning you add, you increase your risk by having to use someone who isn't very good more often.  

the one thing I really don't understand about Maddon is how he can pull his starter at 69 pitches and then let a guy rot when he clearly doesn't have it.  If you're gonna use data and metrics to justify why Canning can't face the order a third time then use those metrics to look at Watson's spin rates or whatever, or just look at him and realize he's not getting guys out today.  Why give Watson time to figure it out when you don't do that for Canning?  Maddon has done that several times now.  

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There is really no predictive data that says Griffith Canning could not compete in the 6th inning of today's game. The same small fish in small bowls of cumulative data has created pigeon holes every pitcher into some other doomed result on a different field, conditions, players, etc. This isn't a fucking video game, let the players determine the outcome by their performance.

And yes, Joe Nero refused to admit he fucked up and burned the game to ashes in stubbornness. 

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I don’t understand why you are all so enamored with what Griffin Canning did today.

His ERA coming into today was over 5 and it was still over 5 when he gave up 2 runs and 5 baserunners in a span of about 9 batters prior to the 6th.

His history this season indicates that he gets lit up (1.200 OPS) after 75 pitches. 
 

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

I’ll say it again: Fans are ALWAYS going to think their manager can’t manage a bullpen because they’re going to blame him every time a reliever fails and they will never credit him when a reliever succeeds. It’s a no win situation. 
 

You’re going to be having this same conversation about the next manager too. Most managers do the same stuff when it comes to the bullpen. 
 

Bob Melvin pulled Sean Manaea on Monday at 100 pitches when he’d allowed 1 run and had an 8-1 lead. The bullpen gave up 4 runs. 

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6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

Honestly it’s not even this. It’s ….

”Don’t use him! Other guys who share the same job title as him have sucked sometimes!”

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1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Honestly it’s not even this. It’s ….

”Don’t use him! Other guys who share the same job title as him have sucked sometimes!”

For someone who's been a beat writer as long as you have, I would have thought you would understand how fans react by now--but maybe not.  I don't think your finger-wagging, exasperated tone is going to accomplish much.  The fact of the matter is that Maddon DOES make some seemingly contradictory statements and moves when it comes to his usage of pitchers.  You yourself wrote an article yesterday about pitcher usage that at the very least seems to somewhat contradict some of the decisions made yesterday.

Edited by jsnpritchett
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Canning a young pitcher and cannot get better without given a chance. Let him at least start 6 inn. To me it's a learning process. Bring in Suarez after down by 4 let him start the 6 inn. This bull[pen is just frustrating. Bring up Barria and put him with Suarez in rotation. Bundy and Quintana in the bullpen.

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11 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

We just aren't a good team. This series showed us that. 

I wonder how well the series would have turned out with a healthy Mike Trout and Anthony Rendon. There's plenty of reasons for optimism going forward, with the exception of the bullpen and Joe Maddon's management thereof. 

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1 minute ago, Chuckster70 said:

I wonder how well the series would have turned out with a healthy Mike Trout and Anthony Rendon. There's plenty of reasons for optimism going forward, with the exception of the bullpen and Joe Maddon's management thereof. 

I don't see it.

I think your bottom point there is a very, very big issue. We have a bunch of shit and Maddon keeps pulling it out trying to make Devil's Tower.

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8 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I don't see it.

I think your bottom point there is a very, very big issue. We have a bunch of shit and Maddon keeps pulling it out trying to make Devil's Tower.

I prefer the mashed potatoes one to the duck cage wire,  mud, and plant one. 

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8 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don’t understand why you are all so enamored with what Griffin Canning did today.

His ERA coming into today was over 5 and it was still over 5 when he gave up 2 runs and 5 baserunners in a span of about 9 batters prior to the 6th.

His history this season indicates that he gets lit up (1.200 OPS) after 75 pitches. 
 

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

I’ll say it again: Fans are ALWAYS going to think their manager can’t manage a bullpen because they’re going to blame him every time a reliever fails and they will never credit him when a reliever succeeds. It’s a no win situation. 
 

You’re going to be having this same conversation about the next manager too. Most managers do the same stuff when it comes to the bullpen. 
 

Bob Melvin pulled Sean Manaea on Monday at 100 pitches when he’d allowed 1 run and had an 8-1 lead. The bullpen gave up 4 runs. 

But the bullpen's history is "hold my beer"....

it's a lose-lose situation. Sure we can base it off of history, but if that's the case then the Angels were screwed no matter what heading into that inning. 

Either give a little faith in Canning only to blow it based off his history or bring in certain bullpen arms who have blown it many times this year.

I would have stuck with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" option. 

It's Canning's game to lose in that situation with that pitch count. Not the bullpen's......

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5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

If they don’t have faith in Canning beyond 70 pitches, why keep him in the rotation then?

Maybe his arm can only handle relief pitching in the long run?

 Idk what this is from GIFs - Get the best gif on GIFER

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2 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

For someone who's been a beat writer as long as you have, I would have thought you would understand how fans react by now--but maybe not.  I don't think your finger-wagging, exasperated tone is going to accomplish much. 

You’re right about that. I tell myself not to respond but sometimes I can’t help myself. I need to just step back and let you guys have your venting. 

 

2 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

You yourself wrote an article yesterday about pitcher usage that at the very least seems to somewhat contradict some of the decisions made yesterday.

The point of that was to say that while they aren’t getting more pitches out of their starter - as Maddon had hoped - they’re not really getting less either. Their rotation is being managed pretty much like everyone else’s, when it comes to decisions made by the manager and not by the pitchers themselves with their performance. 

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9 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don’t understand why you are all so enamored with what Griffin Canning did today.

His ERA coming into today was over 5 and it was still over 5 when he gave up 2 runs and 5 baserunners in a span of about 9 batters prior to the 6th.

His history this season indicates that he gets lit up (1.200 OPS) after 75 pitches. 
 

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

I’ll say it again: Fans are ALWAYS going to think their manager can’t manage a bullpen because they’re going to blame him every time a reliever fails and they will never credit him when a reliever succeeds. It’s a no win situation. 
 

You’re going to be having this same conversation about the next manager too. Most managers do the same stuff when it comes to the bullpen. 
 

Bob Melvin pulled Sean Manaea on Monday at 100 pitches when he’d allowed 1 run and had an 8-1 lead. The bullpen gave up 4 runs. 

I love the weekly Fletcher ass-whoopings on this issue. 

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7 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You’re right about that. I tell myself not to respond but sometimes I can’t help myself. I need to just step back and let you guys have your venting. 

 

Don't do that. You making them look like little girls is a highlight here. 

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13 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You’re right about that. I tell myself not to respond but sometimes I can’t help myself. I need to just step back and let you guys have your venting. 

The point of that was to say that while they aren’t getting more pitches out of their starter - as Maddon had hoped - they’re not really getting less either. Their rotation is being managed pretty much like everyone else’s, when it comes to decisions made by the manager and not by the pitchers themselves with their performance. 

Having your perspective here is great, @Jeff Fletcher

I can say that I speak for the majority of the members here that we appreciate your opinions and especially welcome your responses to ours as well. 

Bring the heat, the finger wagging and especially the exasperated tone all you want. 

The foundation of this website was built on discussions, opinion and banter from so many different perspectives & personalities. 

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