This Bullpen

[Docwaukee]

You can sorta get away with a not so great pen as long as you've got at least a couple guys who rarely fail at their job.  It's all about leverage.  Some guy blows up and allows four runs when you're down by 5 already, then so what.  Or if a guy has a bad outing when you're up by 4 and lets a team back in, at least if your top two or three are really good then you can salvage the situation.  

So the GM doesn't know his manager's tendencies or that the SP was gonna be mediocre at best? 

The thing that's most frustrating is that a good bullpen can be constructed from very little in an off season.  Yet the Angels were asleep at the wheel and even with additions on the last day before the start of the season they still suck.  It's pathetic.  

And most of all, it's demoralizing.  To the fans.  To the players.  Losing games you have a strong chance to win in the later innings.  Giving your offense zero chance to come back.  Knowing that most of the time you match up bullpens and the game is close, you're gonna lose.       

[Docwaukee]

11 minutes ago, Blarg said:

69 pitches.

It was unsuportable decision in any way outside of an injury. 

and as you've made mention of in the past, imagine how gassed they're gonna be in August.  For every inning you add, you increase your risk by having to use someone who isn't very good more often.  

the one thing I really don't understand about Maddon is how he can pull his starter at 69 pitches and then let a guy rot when he clearly doesn't have it.  If you're gonna use data and metrics to justify why Canning can't face the order a third time then use those metrics to look at Watson's spin rates or whatever, or just look at him and realize he's not getting guys out today.  Why give Watson time to figure it out when you don't do that for Canning?  Maddon has done that several times now.  

[Revad]

The model is not sustainable.

[Blarg]

There is really no predictive data that says Griffith Canning could not compete in the 6th inning of today's game. The same small fish in small bowls of cumulative data has created pigeon holes every pitcher into some other doomed result on a different field, conditions, players, etc. This isn't a fucking video game, let the players determine the outcome by their performance.

And yes, Joe Nero refused to admit he fucked up and burned the game to ashes in stubbornness. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

I don’t understand why you are all so enamored with what Griffin Canning did today.

His ERA coming into today was over 5 and it was still over 5 when he gave up 2 runs and 5 baserunners in a span of about 9 batters prior to the 6th.

His history this season indicates that he gets lit up (1.200 OPS) after 75 pitches. 
 

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

I’ll say it again: Fans are ALWAYS going to think their manager can’t manage a bullpen because they’re going to blame him every time a reliever fails and they will never credit him when a reliever succeeds. It’s a no win situation. 
 

You’re going to be having this same conversation about the next manager too. Most managers do the same stuff when it comes to the bullpen. 
 

Bob Melvin pulled Sean Manaea on Monday at 100 pitches when he’d allowed 1 run and had an 8-1 lead. The bullpen gave up 4 runs. 

[Jason]

This is what happens when your pitching staff just isn’t very good 

[Jeff Fletcher]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

Honestly it’s not even this. It’s ….

”Don’t use him! Other guys who share the same job title as him have sucked sometimes!”

[jsnpritchett]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Honestly it’s not even this. It’s ….

”Don’t use him! Other guys who share the same job title as him have sucked sometimes!”

For someone who's been a beat writer as long as you have, I would have thought you would understand how fans react by now--but maybe not.  I don't think your finger-wagging, exasperated tone is going to accomplish much.  The fact of the matter is that Maddon DOES make some seemingly contradictory statements and moves when it comes to his usage of pitchers.  You yourself wrote an article yesterday about pitcher usage that at the very least seems to somewhat contradict some of the decisions made yesterday.

Edited June 17, 2021 by jsnpritchett

[Angels 1961]

Canning a young pitcher and cannot get better without given a chance. Let him at least start 6 inn. To me it's a learning process. Bring in Suarez after down by 4 let him start the 6 inn. This bull[pen is just frustrating. Bring up Barria and put him with Suarez in rotation. Bundy and Quintana in the bullpen.

[tdawg87]

We just aren't a good team. This series showed us that. 

[Chuck]

11 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

We just aren't a good team. This series showed us that. 

I wonder how well the series would have turned out with a healthy Mike Trout and Anthony Rendon. There's plenty of reasons for optimism going forward, with the exception of the bullpen and Joe Maddon's management thereof. 

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, Chuckster70 said:

I wonder how well the series would have turned out with a healthy Mike Trout and Anthony Rendon. There's plenty of reasons for optimism going forward, with the exception of the bullpen and Joe Maddon's management thereof. 

I don't see it.

I think your bottom point there is a very, very big issue. We have a bunch of shit and Maddon keeps pulling it out trying to make Devil's Tower.

[jsnpritchett]

8 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I don't see it.

I think your bottom point there is a very, very big issue. We have a bunch of shit and Maddon keeps pulling it out trying to make Devil's Tower.

I prefer the mashed potatoes one to the duck cage wire,  mud, and plant one. 

[angelsnationtalk]

8 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don’t understand why you are all so enamored with what Griffin Canning did today.

His ERA coming into today was over 5 and it was still over 5 when he gave up 2 runs and 5 baserunners in a span of about 9 batters prior to the 6th.

His history this season indicates that he gets lit up (1.200 OPS) after 75 pitches. 
 

Yet everyone’s answer is “Screw all that. Just give him a chance! Show some faith.”

Yet if Maddon shows faith in someone else: “Don’t use him. He sucks. Look at the numbers!”

I’ll say it again: Fans are ALWAYS going to think their manager can’t manage a bullpen because they’re going to blame him every time a reliever fails and they will never credit him when a reliever succeeds. It’s a no win situation. 
 

You’re going to be having this same conversation about the next manager too. Most managers do the same stuff when it comes to the bullpen. 
 

Bob Melvin pulled Sean Manaea on Monday at 100 pitches when he’d allowed 1 run and had an 8-1 lead. The bullpen gave up 4 runs. 

But the bullpen's history is "hold my beer"....

it's a lose-lose situation. Sure we can base it off of history, but if that's the case then the Angels were screwed no matter what heading into that inning. 

Either give a little faith in Canning only to blow it based off his history or bring in certain bullpen arms who have blown it many times this year.

I would have stuck with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" option. 

It's Canning's game to lose in that situation with that pitch count. Not the bullpen's......

[Cosmo_Kramer]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

We just aren't a good team. This series showed us that. 

We knew this heading into the year..

[Angel Oracle]

If they don’t have faith in Canning beyond 70 pitches, why keep him in the rotation then?

Maybe his arm can only handle relief pitching in the long run?

[DMVol]

5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

If they don’t have faith in Canning beyond 70 pitches, why keep him in the rotation then?

Maybe his arm can only handle relief pitching in the long run?

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

For someone who's been a beat writer as long as you have, I would have thought you would understand how fans react by now--but maybe not.  I don't think your finger-wagging, exasperated tone is going to accomplish much. 

You’re right about that. I tell myself not to respond but sometimes I can’t help myself. I need to just step back and let you guys have your venting. 

 

2 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

You yourself wrote an article yesterday about pitcher usage that at the very least seems to somewhat contradict some of the decisions made yesterday.

The point of that was to say that while they aren’t getting more pitches out of their starter - as Maddon had hoped - they’re not really getting less either. Their rotation is being managed pretty much like everyone else’s, when it comes to decisions made by the manager and not by the pitchers themselves with their performance. 

[Chuck]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You’re right about that. I tell myself not to respond but sometimes I can’t help myself. I need to just step back and let you guys have your venting. 

The point of that was to say that while they aren’t getting more pitches out of their starter - as Maddon had hoped - they’re not really getting less either. Their rotation is being managed pretty much like everyone else’s, when it comes to decisions made by the manager and not by the pitchers themselves with their performance. 

Having your perspective here is great, @Jeff Fletcher. 

I can say that I speak for the majority of the members here that we appreciate your opinions and especially welcome your responses to ours as well. 

Bring the heat, the finger wagging and especially the exasperated tone all you want. 

The foundation of this website was built on discussions, opinion and banter from so many different perspectives & personalities. 

[jsnpritchett]

43 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Having your perspective here is great, @Jeff Fletcher. 

I can say that I speak for the majority of the members here that we appreciate your opinions and especially welcome your responses to ours as well. 

Bring the heat, the finger wagging and especially the exasperated tone all you want. 

The foundation of this website was built on discussions, opinion and banter from so many different perspectives & personalities. 

My point was not that he shouldn't post here.  My point was that he is professional beat writer and admitted NON-fan coming onto a fan website, seemingly surprised at how fans who are passionate about their team are reacting to some really shitty outcomes over the past few days.  That just struck me as kinda pointless (which he then basically acknowledged). 

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

My point was not that he shouldn't post here.  My point was that he is professional beat writer and admitted NON-fan coming onto a fan website, seemingly surprised at how fans who are passionate about their team are reacting to some really shitty outcomes over the past few days.  That just struck me as kinda pointless (which he then basically acknowledged). 

 

[Slegnaac]

17 hours ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I'll put this here and explain my reason Maddon is the reason the Bullpen is bad. 

My irritation with Maddon is the fact he does not or does not want to look at the strengths and weakness of his Bullpen. 

For Example Cishek, In Low Leverage situation, 18 Ip, Cishek has been really good. In medium to High leverage situations, Cishek (9ip) has been awful. Men on base, he has a whip of1.9, Era, FIp and Xfip close to 6. Base's empty, a whip of 1.07, FIp and Xfip of 1.77 and 3.08. Yet for some reason, Maddon does not look at  the stats and realize that  Cishek is better when pitching in a fresh ining, yet he brings him in with Runners on base. Once or twice it's fine, but it's a regular occurance with Maddon. 

So tuesday, with a runner on first, he should have never brought in Cishek! the right guy should have been Rodriguez at that moment! This isn't Cishek fault, it Maddon's fall for not judging Cishek's strengths, therefore this lose is on Maddon. 

 

Next situation, Today there was no reason to take Canning out at 69 pitches while only allowing  5 runner's on base through 5 innings. On the other side, Irvin was allowed to go pitch 5.2 innings while allowing 4 runs. But what ever, you bring in Watson, which i understand, but it was too early, I would have watson ready in the 7th inning. Making it worst he brings in Cishek with runner's on baseball....to anyone's suprise was a diaaster . Another game that we lost thanks to Maddon. 

We see the same bs by maddon throught out the season, and i can conclude that he's been responsible for atleast 7 lose to the season, just because he isn't willing to understand his pitcher's strengths and weakness. 

Yes, i know that our Bullpen is awful, but when used to a strength there are nice peices in the Bullpen. 

9th inning; Iglesias, easy and simple.

8th inning: Mayers, he's had 4 bad apearance that has inflated his era, with a small mechanic change he's looked good.  

7th inning: Suarez, he need a bigger role in the Bullpen. He's really important, and needs to be used more than once or twice a week! He's thrown over 17 Innings and has looked good! 

or, you place Suarez into key moment time of guy, and give the 7th inning to Watson. 

 6th: Cishek, put him in a lowe leverage spot with no one on base. 

 Gurrea put him as a mop guy, let him pitch in game's where we getting blownout. 

Claudi: another guy that has sucess in low levage situation. Pair him with Cishek, Gurrea..etc. 

 

So if a starter give's you 6 innings, you can go to your main weapons to end the game. 

if it's 5, than one of Cishek/Claudi depending on the matchup, then the big guns

Less than 4 inngs, we are probably getting blown out.

 

This has to be the way that Maddon need to  use his bullpen.

Even the A's have 3 guys that can be consider there main weapons, and these guys pitch in those specifc innings, while they also have guys with Era over or close to 5 and they pitch in Specific innings. 

 

If there are mistakes, I don't care this isn't an english class. 

Only one flaw in this.....

Maddon doesn't care about Cishek's results.

[tdawg87]

9 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

My point was not that he shouldn't post here.  My point was that he is professional beat writer and admitted NON-fan coming onto a fan website, seemingly surprised at how fans who are passionate about their team are reacting to some really shitty outcomes over the past few days.  That just struck me as kinda pointless (which he then basically acknowledged). 

With all respect, you have been giving Fletcher shit for a while. Not sure when it started, but I know you didn't like the way he gave information or talked to people here. I know you've given him "troll" ratings in the past.

I respect that, but let's not get carried away here. Jeff isn't really a part of this "community", but the fact that he comes here and gives legitimate takes on the team is a pretty big deal. And there's nothing wrong with a perspective like his; that of a professional who isn't a fan of the team so he's unbiased, but also has just a bit more knowledge than anyone else here when it comes to the goings on with the Angels.

I'm not saying kiss his ass. That's gay. I'm sure Jeff doesn't want that crap. Hell, I completely disagree with him regarding Canning. I'm just saying that having him post as much as he is able is extremely valuable. And many times he puts things into perspective because he's not emotionally invested like we are.

[Jason]

41 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

With all respect, you have been giving Fletcher shit for a while. Not sure when it started, but I know you didn't like the way he gave information or talked to people here. I know you've given him "troll" ratings in the past.

I respect that, but let's not get carried away here. Jeff isn't really a part of this "community", but the fact that he comes here and gives legitimate takes on the team is a pretty big deal. And there's nothing wrong with a perspective like his; that of a professional who isn't a fan of the team so he's unbiased, but also has just a bit more knowledge than anyone else here when it comes to the goings on with the Angels.

I'm not saying kiss his ass. That's gay. I'm sure Jeff doesn't want that crap. Hell, I completely disagree with him regarding Canning. I'm just saying that having him post as much as he is able is extremely valuable. And many times he puts things into perspective because he's not emotionally invested like we are.

Exactly this. I like that we have someone like Fletcher to give us an insiders perspective on different things with the club. As fans we are often blinded by our loyalties so his opinions may not make sense to us but we should welcome them 

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, cals said:

I love the weekly Fletcher ass-whoopings on this issue. 

The fact that they are weekly means I’m beating a dead horse, so I will try to stop.