The elephant in the room...

[Slegnaac]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You think if the analytics department shows Maddon a chart that says Player A hits the ball here against this type of pitcher that he’s going to say “Nah, I disagree with that chart.” I’m sure there is some wiggle room like “But I disagree that this pitcher fits that description.” But he’s not going to just reject the data or decide on his own to move a guy another 10 feet because of his “feel.” No manager is. No manager would ever get hired any more if he did that. 
 

What is he managing? He is managing the people. That’s what managers do. They don’t have a huge impact on wins and losses. That’s what I’ve been telling you guys for the last 8 years. 

However, decisions on leaving a pitcher in the game or removing a pitcher do have an impact on wins and loses.  This type of decision is made on a daily basis, often multiple times a day.

[Jeff Fletcher]

12 hours ago, mmc said:

that.  I did not say anything about anyone throwing a tantrum, but when is the last time someone on the team got mad enough during a game to get ejected, broke their bat, showed any level of anger towards the opposing pitcher after being hit by a pitch or being thrown at, showed any type of animosity towards their rival in a rivalry game, or had any type of dugout clearing incident?

Those all seem like tantrums to me. And they happen occasionally. Ohtani stared down a pitcher who hit him. Upton broke the bat over his knee. Mike Mayers yelled at Joey Gallo after bunting for a hit against him. 
 

And they have players only meetings occasionally. You haven’t heard about it since pre 2020 because the media no longer has any clue what’s going on in the clubhouse. 
 

Baseball is a game played every single day for six months and these guys have it pounded into them from the start of their minor league careers that you can’t get overly emotional at every little thing because you’ll burn yourself out and also bug the hell out of your teammates if you’re constantly acting like that. 
 

To suggest that they don’t care enough because you don’t see it like saying your coworker doesn’t love his wife because you didn’t see them making out at the company Christmas party. You don’t see 95 percent of these guys lives. 
 

Lastly, since 2015 there have probably been 200 guys who have played for the Angels. You think by some miracle of selection they’ve picked the 200 who don’t care? Or that those guys only care when they’re on other teams?

[Inside Pitch]

12 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You think if the analytics department shows Maddon a chart that says Player A hits the ball here against this type of pitcher that he’s going to say “Nah, I disagree with that chart.” I’m sure there is some wiggle room like “But I disagree that this pitcher fits that description.” But he’s not going to just reject the data or decide on his own to move a guy another 10 feet because of his “feel.” No manager is. No manager would ever get hired any more if he did that. 

Nope, but I am pointing out that like a lot of Maddon's comments the talk about the game being too much about the numbers was meant for public consumption.  Maddon knows how to work a crowd.

All I know..  if he's just reading from a clipboard then hopefully Angel fans will finally stop with the Maddon is a genius stuff that they have been spewing for over a decade.  To be honest that's why I wanted you to respond, he's the most overrated "Angel" of record since 2002.   That said, IMO.... they are without question mucking up how the pitchers set up the hitters in connection with how the defense has set up and as a fan I can't help but wonder who the hell it is that needs to get the catcher calling the game and whoever is setting up the defense to do a better job of being on the same page. 

15 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

What is he managing? He is managing the people. That’s what managers do. They don’t have a huge impact on wins and losses. That’s what I’ve been telling you guys for the last 8 years. 

Ha, you're preaching to the choir.   I've been making those same comments since about 2005.

[Jay]

The pitchers aren't bad it's the defense... but the pitchers aren't setting up hitters according to the defense... so the pitchers are bad... but the pitchers aren't bad it's the defense...

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

The pitchers aren't bad it's the defense... but the pitchers aren't setting up hitters according to the defense... so the pitchers are bad...

If the pitcher is inducing ground balls and getting K's he's doing what he has control over.   

I may be reading you wrong but you are possibly mistaking my questioning why they aren't on the same page as doublespeak, it's not.  The problem is that whoever is responsible for how they are setting up and whoever is responsible for how the defense is set up AREN'T on the same page..   

The defense has far and away been worse than the pitching.

K/9 - 1st -- the gap for just SPs is even bigger https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=8,d
GB% - 3rd
BaBip allowed 30th
DRS (defensive runs saved) 30th
Def - 10.1, 29th

A rotation ERA of 5.54 .vs an FIP of  3.83 is just laughably hard to believe is actually happening.   Quintana recorded 9 of 11 outs two days ago on his own while giving up a .717 batting average on balls made contact on.   It's unreal.

[Jeff Fletcher]

46 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

All I know..  if he's just reading from a clipboard then hopefully Angel fans will finally stop with the Maddon is a genius stuff that they have been spewing for over a decade.  To be honest that's why I wanted you to respond, he's the most overrated "Angel" of record since 2002.   That said, IMO.... they are without question mucking up how the pitchers set up the hitters in connection with how the defense has set up and as a fan I can't help but wonder who the hell it is that needs to get the catcher calling the game and whoever is setting up the defense to do a better job of being on the same page. 

I think what you’re referring to is when you see a team shifted and then the pitcher throws a pitch over the outside part of the plate. 
 

That happens because the thinking is the hitter will still try to pull that pitch and make an easy out. If a hitter does hit it the other way, good for him making an adjustment. Also, it means he settled for a single instead of doing damage pulling it. If he does it enough, the defense will change.

I’m sure if you look at the heat maps of hitters who are primary pull hitters, they get pitched outside too. What makes them pull hitters is that they pull those pitches too. 
 

You can’t just only throw inside when you’re shifted. Then you’re just telling the hitter what you’re going to do when he sees the defense. That doesn’t work out well. 

I will add that every time a pull hitter gets pitched outside and he hits a routine little ground ball, it doesn't register at all in your mind. You only remember the times you see him poke a single into left.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Jeff Fletcher

[Jeff Fletcher]

Here's how MLB has pitched Joey Gallo and where he's hit the ball since the start of 2020.

[Inside Pitch]

17 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think what you’re referring to is when you see a team shifted and then the pitcher throws a pitch over the outside part of the plate. 
 

That happens because the thinking is the hitter will still try to pull that pitch and make an easy out. If a hitter does hit it the other way, good for him making an adjustment. Also, it means he settled for a single instead of doing damage pulling it. If he does it enough, the defense will change.

I’m sure if you look at the heat maps of hitters who are primary pull hitters, they get pitched outside too. What makes them pull hitters is that they pull those pitches too. 
 

You can’t just only throw inside when you’re shifted. Then you’re just telling the hitter what you’re going to do when he sees the defense. That doesn’t work out well. 

I understand the why, I also am watching in real time as they team is being consistently beaten by hitters choosing to "settle for the single", which includes guys like JP Crawford, he of the career .352 SLG%.

Again, I get what youre saying but you're oversimplifying what's been happening and the data points are more than just just whether or not a guy is a pull hitter.   The great thing about stat-cast data available at BBsavant is that you can watch a game and have the data up while they are batting.  Stat-cast shows you the hitters tendencies/heat maps .vs all types of hitters and pitches and even pull hitters show certain success against certain pitch types and pitchers.  I'm guessing there may be data .vs individual pitchers that might make them do certain things and I have admittedly not been looking at those preferring to try to see as big a sample as possible, but I started hawking this crap during games about a week maybe ten days ago when I openly started to wonder on the forum if it wasn't bad luck but something else.

I'm not one to casually second guess what the team is doing -- this has legit been happening.   They have been playing the defense one way then setting up in some really off kilter ways.   

I mean, the other option.  It's bad luck and the Angels have cornered the market on it.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I understand the why, I also am watching in real time as they team is being consistently beaten by hitters choosing to "settle for the single".   

Again, I get what youre saying but you're oversimplifying what's been happening and the data points are more than just just whether or not a guy is a pull hitter.   The great thing about stat-cast data available at BBsavant is that you can watch a game and have the data up while they are batting.  Stat-cast shows you the hitters tendencies/heat maps .vs all types of hitters and pitches and even pull hitters show certain success against certain pitch types and pitchers.  I'm guessing there may be data .vs individual pitchers that might make them do certain things and I have admittedly not been looking at those preferring to try to see as big a sample as possible, but I started hawking this crap during games about a week maybe ten days ago when I openly started to wonder on the forum if it wasn't bad luck but something else.

I'm not one to casually second guess what the team is doing -- this has legit been happening.   They have been playing the defense one way then setting up in some really off kilter ways.   

 

You're still talking about pretty small sample sizes. If the gap in their expected stats and real stats is this wide after 3 months, I'd be more willing to accept that it's because of something other than bad luck.

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You're still talking about pretty small sample sizes. If the gap in their expected stats and real stats is this wide after 3 months, I'd be more willing to accept that it's because of something other than bad luck.

This I agree with... and maybe it is just bad luck..  But holy shit....

[Jay]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I may be reading you wrong but you are possibly mistaking my questioning why they aren't on the same page as doublespeak, it's not. 

No I just saw an opportunity to throw in a Star Trek reference.

[failos]

Joking aside, there are some good discussions happening in here. 

[Docwaukee]

Sorry, but I'm just not buying that it's small sample or bad luck.  I know it's only been 28 games but it's not like we're talking about a sample for one player.  It's the whole team.  Every chance for 28 games.  And it's led to a BABIP of 10 points higher than the next closest team?  

There is a disconnect somewhere 

[Angel Oracle]

So, essentially it’s Pujols, Iglesias, Suzuki, the replacements for Rendon, and bad pitching/defense synching that are the cause of this putrid defensive performance so far?

 One would think it shouldn’t take ST plus 30 games for pitchers and the defensive guys to get on the same page?

Edited May 5, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

No I just saw an opportunity to throw in a Star Trek reference.

Dude, this is right up there with your scouting report a whole back.  Grade A stuff and I apologize for not catching it.

Props.

[Inside Pitch]

45 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

So, essentially it’s Pujols, Iglesias, Suzuki, the replacements for Rendon, and bad pitching/defense synching that are the cause of this putrid defensive performance so far?

 One would think it shouldn’t take ST plus 30 games for pitchers and the defensive guys to get on the same page?

Iglesias has had issues but AP has made Iglesias look worse because of the bungled digs at 1B.   He's never looked this bad defensively.

[Jason]

13 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Iglesias has had issues but AP has made Iglesias look worse because of the bungled digs at 1B.   He's never looked this bad defensively.

I'll probably do a lot of shit half assed too when its my final year before retirement. 

[failos]

1 hour ago, Toby Flenderson said:

I'll probably do a lot of shit half assed too when its my final year before retirement. 

[Angel Oracle]

Is Rojas as bad defensively as Pujols at 1B?

They can’t keep on playing Pujols 5-6 days a week.

[Jason]

9 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Is Rojas as bad defensively as Pujols at 1B?

They can’t keep on playing Pujols 5-6 days a week.

But he's a Hall of Fame veteran!! 

[Docwaukee]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Is Rojas as bad defensively as Pujols at 1B?

They can’t keep on playing Pujols 5-6 days a week.

He's terrible.  Awful.  I'm pretty sure I'm better.  The best defensive alignment is Walsh at 1b and Ward in RF.  

[Angel Oracle]

20 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

He's terrible.  Awful.  I'm pretty sure I'm better.  The best defensive alignment is Walsh at 1b and Ward in RF.  

Seems like it would be better to:

a) Have Ward and Lagares share RF, Walsh at 1B, and Benboom back up Stassi then to:

b) Have Walsh in RF, Pujols and Rojas share 1B, and Ward as backup catcher?

It would be good to know Maddon’s thinking here.

[ten ocho recon scout]

On 5/4/2021 at 11:20 AM, mmc said:

No manager will make up for this teams continuous lack of pitching talent

I agree with this. But, and maybe this is just me, the defense has been a huge factor in the pitching.

Im seeing little league plays pretty regularly. And a good number of balls that our supposed great infield defense misses by inches.

Its one thing for me to criticize them. The plays are likely a lot harder than they look. But so many of these recent games have seemed equal bad pitching, equal "we should have been out of that inning"

[Bronson]

7 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Those all seem like tantrums to me. And they happen occasionally. Ohtani stared down a pitcher who hit him. Upton broke the bat over his knee. Mike Mayers yelled at Joey Gallo after bunting for a hit against him. 
 

And they have players only meetings occasionally. You haven’t heard about it since pre 2020 because the media no longer has any clue what’s going on in the clubhouse. 
 

Baseball is a game played every single day for six months and these guys have it pounded into them from the start of their minor league careers that you can’t get overly emotional at every little thing because you’ll burn yourself out and also bug the hell out of your teammates if you’re constantly acting like that. 
 

To suggest that they don’t care enough because you don’t see it like saying your coworker doesn’t love his wife because you didn’t see them making out at the company Christmas party. You don’t see 95 percent of these guys lives. 
 

Lastly, since 2015 there have probably been 200 guys who have played for the Angels. You think by some miracle of selection they’ve picked the 200 who don’t care? Or that those guys only care when they’re on other teams?

The “dagger in the heart” post. 
 

This team has heart. Yeah they aren’t throwing temper tantrums like Amir Garrett but I see plenty of fight in this team.

Seems like every time Upton makes an out he’s yelling, slamming his bat, breaking his bat etc.

[ten ocho recon scout]

6 minutes ago, Bronson said:

 

Seems like every time Upton makes an out 

If you change the sentence to that, it seems more accurate.

(And Im one of his bigger fans on here)