Baseball America: “They [Angels] have no bullpen,” one opposing scout said. “It’s going to be a big issue.”

[Bronson]

Seems like a waste to take someone as talented as C Rod and just stick him in the bullpen without even giving him a shot at starting first. 
 

Usually converting starting pitchers to relievers happens when they suck ass as a starter... C Rod isn’t even getting a chance.

[totdprods]

4 hours ago, Bronson said:

Seems like a waste to take someone as talented as C Rod and just stick him in the bullpen without even giving him a shot at starting first. 
 

Usually converting starting pitchers to relievers happens when they suck ass as a starter... C Rod isn’t even getting a chance.

He’s had a chance the last five years and couldn’t stay healthy starting...

And they can still stretch him out as the year goes on, or next year if he’s proven he can stay on the field. 

Chris Sale didn’t make a start until his third season in the bigs. The Dodgers regularly give their SPs innings in relief even after they’ve brought them up for starts.

Edited March 26, 2021 by totdprods

[oldguy]

10 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Btw, I am no longer going to be surprised if CRod makes the team. 
 

Not sure it’s a good idea but people who know more than me seem to think so. 

Agree.  Otherwise, why would he have pitched to only two batters yesterday and been relieved mid-inning?  It appears they are getting him ready for short stints.  

[Warfarin]

47 minutes ago, totdprods said:

He’s had a chance the last five years and couldn’t stay healthy starting...

And they can still stretch him out as the year goes on, or next year if he’s proven he can stay on the field. 

Chris Sale didn’t make a start until his third season in the bigs. The Dodgers regularly give their SPs innings in relief even after they’ve brought them up for starts.

Given Maddon's comments about CRod too, it seems that perhaps his future is in relief.  I don't think they will necessarily close the door on him becoming a SP, but it seems for now they just want to ensure he can stay healthy and last over a full season.

His delivery is still rather violent, so perhaps the thinking is that someone with his mechanics and history of injury is better suited to be a high-leverage reliever than a SP.  

While that'd be a shame, if CRod becomes our closer of the future, for a team who has struggled to field a good bullpen, that's not the worst outcome.  It does mean we will need to be more aggressive in drafting and developing SP talent, along with signing/acquiring SP talent in the upcoming years.

Determs should be a lock to be part of the rotation in the not so distant future, and given how good Minasian is at drafting/developing talent, I also wouldn't be surprised to see some of our current SP prospects take some nice leaps as they are under a new developmental team.  We'll see what this year brings.

[TheOGGabyC]

I wonder if Maddon could try to be similar to the dodgers pitching staff, and move some starters into the bullpen with piggy back roles. For example we could see Quintana get the first 5-6 innings of a start, for Sandoval or Barria to come in and pitch another 2-3 innings to set it up for the back of the bullpen. It's a little bit easier to do when Dustin May or Julio Urias is your next man up, but this might be an option for the Angels.

[totdprods]

25 minutes ago, TheOGGabyC said:

I wonder if Maddon could try to be similar to the dodgers pitching staff, and move some starters into the bullpen with piggy back roles. For example we could see Quintana get the first 5-6 innings of a start, for Sandoval or Barria to come in and pitch another 2-3 innings to set it up for the back of the bullpen. It's a little bit easier to do when Dustin May or Julio Urias is your next man up, but this might be an option for the Angels.

I'm pretty much expecting this, at least for the first month of the season, especially since there won't be a AAA season right away. 

By the time Salt Lake starts playing games, the Angels should have their main 6 (whoever that may be) settled in terms of being stretched out, healthy, and effective, and hopefully more of the relief corps healed up and ready such as Pena, Slegers, Yan, Bard, and Quijada.

But until then, I think it makes all the sense in the world to have the pen rounded out with Sandoval, Barria, Rodriguez, Slegers, even ugh Chavez...guys who can throw multiple innings. Piggy-back with the top 6 until things level off.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, totdprods said:

He’s had a chance the last five years and couldn’t stay healthy starting...

And they can still stretch him out as the year goes on, or next year if he’s proven he can stay on the field. 

Chris Sale didn’t make a start until his third season in the bigs. The Dodgers regularly give their SPs innings in relief even after they’ve brought them up for starts.

Good Lord man, could you be more wrong about the nature of his injury history. 

He's not had trouble "staying healthy", he's had ONE injury that they attempted to fix with rest, it didn't work and they ended up having to correct it with surgery.   This isn't someone breaking down every two weeks with something new or someone so fragile he needs to be treated with kid gloves.  You could sooner make this argument about Brandon Marsh who had nearly the same injury early in his career and been on the shelf pretty much off and on every year since then and nobody is talking about converting him to a DH to keep him healthy and on the field.

Maddon wanting to use him as a RP is no real shocker, the kid is talented, misses bats, and can help the team win -- but for a team staring down the possibility of needing to replace four SPs next offseason removing the guy with the most upside from the system is one of the more shortsighted things this team has done in recent years and yet -- I'm not remotely surprised.

I'm not saying it's totally indefensible because an argument can be made that the team will be better able to monitor his usage and try to limit fatigue/monitor his health, but people really shouldn't be trying to paint this as anything other than a win now move because having him do anything but starting before he's proven he's incapable of it is dumb.  It's unlikely he will be using his full arsenal as a RP, nobody wants to be beat with their fourth best pitch in a leverage situations -- so there's a very real possibility it hinders his development on that end...   And while people can talk about the team "stretching him out" chances are if he comes in and proves to be a hammer, then we'll likely see him used as such, they will want him "fresh" so he will be able to put out the next raging fire the rest of the arson squad sets aflame the next day.

It's just as likely that if he has success in the pen Maddon pushes for him to be the closer next year because the super genius likes doing stuff like that then blather on about how teams need to think outside the box.  He will say it with style and people will buy it but when push comes to shove, a front end SP will always be more valuable and ultimately more expensive than a back end RP.

 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, TheOGGabyC said:

I wonder if Maddon could try to be similar to the dodgers pitching staff, and move some starters into the bullpen with piggy back roles. For example we could see Quintana get the first 5-6 innings of a start, for Sandoval or Barria to come in and pitch another 2-3 innings to set it up for the back of the bullpen. It's a little bit easier to do when Dustin May or Julio Urias is your next man up, but this might be an option for the Angels.

Tandem starting is something that's not done enough and something the Stoneman era Angels did all through the lower levels of the minors.   It's something the team should be doing.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, oldguy said:

Agree.  Otherwise, why would he have pitched to only two batters yesterday and been relieved mid-inning?  It appears they are getting him ready for short stints.  

Exactly -- they have been using him as a hammer and the guy at the top is yapping about how "he strikes me as a RP the way he attacks guys".   Well no shit Mr. Genius, that's how you're employing him.   He's not being developed, he's being groomed and there is a pretty drastic difference between the two things.

It's utterly frustrating, made even worse by how easily Angel fans are buying into Maddon's lip service.

[totdprods]

21 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Good Lord man, could you be more wrong about the nature of his injury history. 

He's not had trouble "staying healthy", he's had ONE injury that they attempted to fix with rest, it didn't work and they ended up having to correct it with surgery.   This isn't someone breaking down every two weeks with something new or someone so fragile he needs to be treated with kid gloves.  You could sooner make this argument about Brandon Marsh who had nearly the same injury early in his career and been on the shelf pretty much off and on every year since then and nobody is talking about converting him to a DH to keep him healthy and on the field.

Sorry, but having a spinal stress fracture and needing screws inserted into your vertebrae when you're in your early 20's as a potential result to your delivery seems like an ominous precursor to your long-term durability. 

It was one injury, sure, but it isn't one that bodes well for his ability to remain a SP. 

Everything else you said I agree with though. Personally? I'm just happy he's healthy and potentially able to help us no matter how it comes; relief, depth, starter, trade bait...I thought he'd be retired or gonzo by this point. Sometimes we just need to take what we can get. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by totdprods

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Sorry, but having a spinal stress fracture and needing screws inserted into your vertebrae when you're in your early 20's as a potential result to your delivery seems like an ominous precursor to your long-term durability. 

And yet there are entire pages on the internet devoted to the procedure and the long term prognosis that paints a non ominous picture including for athletes.   Seriously -- take five minutes to look this up.   No signs of herniated disks, no stenosis.... if either of those conditions were present I'd see it differently but, he's dodged those bullets.   Believe it or not the condition is becoming somewhat common in young athletes.  https://www.physio-pedia.com/Spondylolysis_in_Young_Athletes

10 minutes ago, totdprods said:

thought he'd be retired or gonzo by this point. Sometimes we just need to take what we can get. 

And that's where we differed.  I was never concerned long term.  When people were stressing out that all the lost time may have hurt his "development" I kept repeating how getting guys out is getting guys out.  

What he needs to do at this point is pitch and prove it's behind him..  If indeed it were to come back or he has further back issues THEN it's time to talk about switching him to RP, but the reality is that if the issue comes back, then it's likely his career as a pitcher is over, period.

[Tank]

40 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Tandem starting is something that's not done enough and something the Stoneman era Angels did all through the lower levels of the minors.   It's something the team should be doing.

i would have made him an opener. that's kind of a tandemy thing, right?

signed, brad ausmus

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tank

[DCAngelsFan]

38 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

...

It's just as likely that if he has success in the pen Maddon pushes for him to be the closer next year because the super genius likes doing stuff like that then blather on about how teams need to think outside the box.  He will say it with style and people will buy it but when push comes to shove, a front end SP will always be more valuable and ultimately more expensive than a back end RP.

 

I mean, does it actually need to be said?  A front-end SP has far more value than a reliever, who have notoriously short shelf-lives.

Using him as a RP runs the very real risk of derailing a potential top-half starter and, if overused, ending his career years early.

Manager's job is to win now - GM's job is to win now and next year and next.  

Perry will need to step in - I can see the temptation to use him now - there might even be some benefit, but only inasmuch it will help him develop as a starter.    

 

[Torridd]

16 hours ago, aznhockeyguy said:

If the starters are healthy and can pitch 5-6 innings consistently, the bullpen can perform better.  Part of the reason the Angels bullpen hasn't been very good is because of overuse due to the lack of good starter. The Angels had to throw out the part of the bullpen you shouldn't be using too often because the starters got hurt, couldn't pitch into games often, etc. 

This is crucial. Good point.

[Dtwncbad]

On 3/24/2021 at 9:10 PM, TaylorBot said:

What is an "opposing scout"?

Answer:

The imagination of a writer in need of content.

[Torridd]

9 hours ago, Bronson said:

Seems like a waste to take someone as talented as C Rod and just stick him in the bullpen without even giving him a shot at starting first. 
 

Usually converting starting pitchers to relievers happens when they suck ass as a starter... C Rod isn’t even getting a chance.

I don't believe that's what happened with Eckersley, but someone let me know why he became a reliever.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Tandem starting is something that's not done enough and something the Stoneman era Angels did all through the lower levels of the minors.   It's something the team should be doing.

It beats using a 1-2 innings opener.

[oldguy]

6 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I don't believe that's what happened with Eckersley, but someone let me know why he became a reliever.

It works both ways, Chuck Finley was a 2-inning guy his first couple of years.

[Angel Oracle]

9 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I don't believe that's what happened with Eckersley, but someone let me know why he became a reliever.

After being mainly a starter (only 1 relief appearance from 1977-1986), when he arrived in Oakland after 1986, they immediately made him a reliever (54 appearances, only 2 of them starts).  Not sure why, but it made him a HOF pitcher.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Angel Oracle]

1 minute ago, oldguy said:

It works both ways, Chuck Finley was a 2-inning guy his first couple of years.

Should have come in to pitch the 11th instead of Moore pitching into a 3rd inning in ALCS game 5.

[Inside Pitch]

12 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I don't believe that's what happened with Eckersley, but someone let me know why he became a reliever.

He had become a raging alcoholic and pitched to an ERA+ of 97 combined for the four seasons before moving to Oakland where LaRussa made his a RP.  

[Dtwncbad]

12 minutes ago, oldguy said:

It works both ways, Chuck Finley was a 2-inning guy his first couple of years.

Once he got some stamina, he was able to land Tawnee Kittaen.

[PattyD22]

36 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Once he got some stamina, he was able to land Tawnee Kittaen.

And then Tawny got stamina and was able to land an overhand right or two on Chuck.

[oldguy]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Should have come in to pitch the 11th instead of Moore pitching into a 3rd inning in ALCS game 5.

Agree.  Its funny how managers don't like to take risks in high-leverage situations.  Percival was SO much better than Lee Smith in '95, but Lacheman wouldn't make the change...KRod should've replaced Percy a year before he did...and it was hard to watch Moore struggle with Finley in the bullpen.

[oldguy]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

He had become a raging alcoholic and pitched to an ERA+ of 97 combined for the four seasons before moving to Oakland where LaRussa made his a RP.  

Wow!  I didn't know that.  Kinda ironic given LaRussa's history with alcohol.