The Official 2021 Los Angeles Angels Spring Training News & Notes Thread

[totdprods]

5 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Normally I'd say just send him down to AA and have him work his way up, but I think he'll be wasted--and wasting time--in minor league camp, so I like the idea that he's in the big league bullpen in April. If he pitches well, keep him in the pen all year long, gradually stretching him out to 2-3+ innings, as a kind of "apprenticeship" for a starting role next year. I think there's a valid argument that 70ish innings in the major league bullpen is more valuable for him than 120ish IP in the minors, as far as preparing for a starting role next year.

This is exactly what I’ve been suggesting and think it’s a good idea. Having him pitch in the majors this year in relief doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a future as a SP. 

I’m all for him getting some starts in down in the minors initially. But with the minor league season being at greater risk for prolonged shutdowns, the Angels’ sense of urgency to compete, the thin bullpen, Rodriguez’ likely having some sort of limit to his workload, I think it’s a completely viable plan to have him do what you listed. 

And should it be that Rodriguez’ future is a reliever...is that really so bad? Elite relievers are few and far between and nearly impossible for the Angels to trade for in the short term, command a ton of FA money for a volatile asset, and are becoming some of the most important aspects of playoff strategy. When was the last time we produced even a good above-average reliever? We’re at least getting closer on the SP front with Canning and Detmers. 

Again I think of the difference in timelines between an MLB GM and a fanbase. Minasian is here to win during his contract and we’re here for ‘life’. That doesn’t mean every move won’t be made without the future in mind, but it could make sense for someone like Rodriguez or Sandoval to wind up in the pen sooner rather than later just to fill a need to help Minasian’s plan to win now.

[Warfarin]

25 minutes ago, totdprods said:

This is exactly what I’ve been suggesting and think it’s a good idea. Having him pitch in the majors this year in relief doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a future as a SP. 

I’m all for him getting some starts in down in the minors initially. But with the minor league season being at greater risk for prolonged shutdowns, the Angels’ sense of urgency to compete, the thin bullpen, Rodriguez’ likely having some sort of limit to his workload, I think it’s a completely viable plan to have him do what you listed. 

And should it be that Rodriguez’ future is a reliever...is that really so bad? Elite relievers are few and far between and nearly impossible for the Angels to trade for in the short term, command a ton of FA money for a volatile asset, and are becoming some of the most important aspects of playoff strategy. When was the last time we produced even a good above-average reliever? We’re at least getting closer on the SP front with Canning and Detmers. 

Again I think of the difference in timelines between an MLB GM and a fanbase. Minasian is here to win during his contract and we’re here for ‘life’. That doesn’t mean every move won’t be made without the future in mind, but it could make sense for someone like Rodriguez or Sandoval to wind up in the pen sooner rather than later just to fill a need to help Minasian’s plan to win now.

Yeah.  The more I think about this, the better, IMO.

I have seen a few teams actually use pitchers recovering from TJ surgery in a similar fashion (with their prospects).  Instead of having them start, say, 10-12 games while pitching 5-6 innings per game, and thus being shut down for effectively over half the year, they instead have them pitch 2-3 inning stints, but have them do it over most of the season, so they can pitch over a longer period of time.  The Dodgers did that with Michael Grove, I believe, and I have seen a few other teams emulate that same process.

I would consider doing something similar with CRod.  His stuff looks great to me.  Maybe have him pitch 2-3 innings every 5 days or so, but have him do it in the big leagues.  He can "tandem start" with someone like Cobb, for example, and be used to help give most of the bullpen a day off in the process, assuming the SP can pitch 5-6 innings, and then he can come in and pitch most of the rest.

We can help him build up to 70-90 innings this year perhaps, and then next year help him expand it to, say, 125-150 or so, depending on how he fares.

[tdawg87]

I'm gonna need @Inside Pitch's input here because to me this idea is utter nonsense. Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it.

[totdprods]

5 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I'm gonna need @Inside Pitch's input here because to me this idea is utter nonsense. Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it.

Why? Do you think he should (or could) throw 120 innings in the minors with no real limits and see what happens? That seems awfully risky given his ceiling and how little he’s thrown the last *several* seasons. 

This is about protecting a potentially elite arm. 

[totdprods]

Tandem starter is a good idea, especially if it’s with someone who sucks (like Cobb might), has difficulty going deep in games (Sandoval tends to unravel once he gets in a jam the second time through a lineup), or someone who tends to top out around 4-5 innings like Barria. 

Or use Rodriguez as a once-through the lineup opener. 

[Stradling]

I don’t think he will pitch 120 innings in the minors this year.  

[Angels 1961]

If Rodriguez continues to impress in spring he deserves a spot in pen. Especially with this halo pen which looks to have some weak spots. If he can help Angels win have him on team. He could have arm problems in minors or majors. Let's use this talent where we need it. Again depends on rest of spring.

[Inside Pitch]

36 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

Yeah.  The more I think about this, the better, IMO.

I have seen a few teams actually use pitchers recovering from TJ surgery in a similar fashion (with their prospects).  Instead of having them start, say, 10-12 games while pitching 5-6 innings per game, and thus being shut down for effectively over half the year, they instead have them pitch 2-3 inning stints, but have them do it over most of the season, so they can pitch over a longer period of time.  The Dodgers did that with Michael Grove, I believe, and I have seen a few other teams emulate that same process.

I would consider doing something similar with CRod.  His stuff looks great to me.  Maybe have him pitch 2-3 innings every 5 days or so, but have him do it in the big leagues.  He can "tandem start" with someone like Cobb, for example, and be used to help give most of the bullpen a day off in the process, assuming the SP can pitch 5-6 innings, and then he can come in and pitch most of the rest.

We can help him build up to 70-90 innings this year perhaps, and then next year help him expand it to, say, 125-150 or so, depending on how he fares.

 

Rodriguez isn't an established pitcher with a track record as a SP.  He's a guy that hasn't been that guy yet -- he's also not trying to build his arm back from TJ surgery, so the comparisons to guys coming back from TJ pretty much end there -- it's a different rehab process. 

Because of the unique situation he's in -- missed two years because of non arm injury, another year "lost" at the alternate site, the best way to maximize his development is to have him take a regular spot in a rotation and let him learn to use his stuff.  You could do that in a tandem starter situation but then you risk capping him at 4-5 innings which would also mean he's not learning how to adjust and extend his outings.   There are just a lot of downsides to doing that in Rodriguez's case.  I'm a huge fan of tandem rotations, particularly in the lower minors where they can help a team differentiate between the guys who could go on to be 7 inning SPs and those who would be best suited to come out of the pen due to stamina or stuff issues.  I'd absolutely use one at the MLB level but the only way I put a guy in the back end of a tandem is if he's already proven he's a twice through the lineup guy.  Chris Rodriguez needs to be allowed to prove he isn't more than just that.

I've been one of the guys beating the Chris Rodriguez drum the longest, even when people were questioning how the time off would impact his development I argued that pitching unlike hitting is all about perfecting what you do and not how they come at you -- basically, I wasn't all that concerned about the layoff.  When we did our preseason rankings I said he might be the most impactful rookie the team has had since Trout -- his stuff is that good, the impact long term could be that great.  If he's what his stuff and mentality says he is then you have Ohtani AND Rodriguez already in the fold and the Angels pitching situation changes completely.  Only reason I'm saying this is I doubt there is anyone that wants to see him in Anaheim more than I do.... but....

IMO, the best possible place for Chris Rodriguez to pith this year is in AAA, in a park that will absolutely try to kill him.   Let him get his innings in, work on his command, and learn how to overcome a hostile pitching environment.  If after 10-12 starts he's shown he's capable of getting through a third time through the order then fine, call him up... even if it's as a reliever, back of the tandem guy.   The Angels are going to want to limit his innings anyway so, a mid/late season move to the pen where they can have him continue to throw in front of the coaches and monitor his workload would be great.

Starting him anywhere but in a rotation from hello and letting him pitch would prove to be short-sighted, again IMO.

[Stradling]

I think if it were up to me, I would get Rodriguez as many looks as I can this spring, then send him to extended spring training, then start the year at AA or AAA and put him in the rotation.  With the season starting a month later, it would be at least 5 less starts than a major league season.  If he is dominating and able to throw 5-6 innings in AA or AAA and we have a need in the 2nd half, bring him up for the rotation.  If we don’t have a need, and we are in the thick of it, then bring him up for the bullpen on August 31st, so you can have him for the stretch run and possibly the playoffs.

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

If Rodriguez continues to impress in spring he deserves a spot in pen. Especially with this halo pen which looks to have some weak spots. If he can help Angels win have him on team. He could have arm problems in minors or majors. Let's use this talent where we need it. Again depends on rest of spring.

Weren't you the guy clamoring for Adell to make the team out of ST last year?  

There is little question Rodriguez can get MLB hitters out right now but why fucking waste a year of service time and limit his development because you're too cheap to address a need?  If the Angels were to put short term gains ahead of letting this guy grow into the pitcher his stuff says he will be then they really are as stupid as everyone here constantly says they are.

Let him get his innings, if the Angels need a RP at the break then instead of wasting organizational assets, by all means let him have a go at that role -- at least the team would know they have an in house option for the rotation as they head into 2022 needing to replace four SPs.

[eligrba]

53 minutes ago, totdprods said:

This is about protecting a potentially elite arm. 

So you protect a potentially elite arm by limiting his innings at a higher level of play?  Injury is an inherent risk at any level of play.  Allowing his further development in addition to strengthening his arm at a lower competitive level is probably the best approach.  If the Angels don't need him, there is no reason to bring him up at this time.

[wopphil]

Does anyone think he could make the squad out of camp? I would say it’s highly doubtful for so many reasons - lack of games played recently, age, service time considerations - but what if he just dominates this spring and it is obvious he can help the team now? 

[eligrba]

2 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Does anyone think he could make the squad out of camp? I would say it’s highly doubtful for so many reasons - lack of games played recently, age, service time considerations - but what if he just dominates this spring and it is obvious he can help the team now? 

I have no idea.  I am assuming there is more to consider about the timing of a promotion than whether a player can play at the major league level or their service time.  Competing at the highest level possible requires a particular mental approach that may not always develop at the same rate as a player's physical skills.  Baseball is filled with cautionary tales of players who were promoted too early despite having the physical skills and physical ability to compete.

[Inside Pitch]

On 3/6/2021 at 3:50 AM, Angelsjunky said:

I think there's a valid argument that 70ish innings in the major league bullpen is more valuable for him than 120ish IP in the minors, as far as preparing for a starting role next year.

Make that argument ..     

I can see a lot of arguments why the team would want to do that and it benefits them -- but there is very little about a guy that's had almost no experience as a SP working as a RP that will help him become a better SP.  Irregular work schedule also ups the chance of injury

Chris Rodriguez was drafted in 2016.  He's made 22 career starts -- 19 of them in rookie ball as an 18 year old.  He's 22.

[Stradling]

On 3/6/2021 at 10:41 AM, wopphil said:

Does anyone think he could make the squad out of camp? I would say it’s highly doubtful for so many reasons - lack of games played recently, age, service time considerations - but what if he just dominates this spring and it is obvious he can help the team now? 

The problem with that approach is, even if he can help the team now, with his lack of innings, now could be very temporary.

[eligrba]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Make that argument ..   

Because pitching in relief allows him to always know when he pitches.......no.......wait,  because pitching in relief allows him to develop a routine.........no.....wait......because pitching in relief allows Madden to bring him in when there is a high probability of success.........no.....wait,  because pitching the majors is better than in the minors.

[totdprods]

I think what @Inside Pitch described is a near ideal plan for him. Have him start the season getting a good stint in the minors as a starter to build up some reps and work on durability, and then bring him up midseason when there’s some need on the MLB staff as a reliever or tandem starter. It would be an organic way of limiting his innings, keeping his service clock from starting to early, challenging him at the MLB level for a touch, and allowing him a chance to get some work in as a SP. 

Ideally 2022 is ‘normal’ and he can slot into the AAA rotation until a spot becomes available. 

[Vlad27Trout27]

Lets be serious, He's only faced two batter and yes it was immpressive. but its only two batters. 

Second thing that needs to be considered, the highest he has pitched is High-A, not counting the Alternate side. There still is alot to grow and developmemnt, that will get watsed if he's up. 

Last thing, i see alot of people saying that him being on the main squad, will be better off. I disagreed. IF he coming in to only pitch a inning or 2, than its just a waste. With his stuff and upside, i rather have him in a rotation than the Bp. I also thing it effect his development aswell. 

I rather have Rodriguez, spend some time in the minors and Develop, rather than getting called up and not being ready, effecting his developed, wasting his clock etc...Like Suraez and Adell. 

 

Start him at AA, and see how he does, if he dominate than he's that much closer to the Majors. Once AAA season starts, and he's doing good in AA, move him up to AAA and let him get tested. 

I Expect him to Pitch around 80 inngs in the Minors, and if he's ready he'll get the call up in Sept. 

I also feel the same should be done with Detmers. 

[Inside Pitch]

13 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I think what @Inside Pitch described is a near ideal plan for him. Have him start the season getting a good stint in the minors as a starter to build up some reps and work on durability, and then bring him up midseason when there’s some need on the MLB staff as a reliever or tandem starter. It would be an organic way of limiting his innings, keeping his service clock from starting to early, challenging him at the MLB level for a touch, and allowing him a chance to get some work in as a SP. 

Ideally 2022 is ‘normal’ and he can slot into the AAA rotation until a spot becomes available. 

With AAA supposedly starting later than anticipated and the likelihood teams will again have some sort of alternate site or bigger extended ST, the Angels may get the chance to see more of him in a controlled situation than they normally would -- that's a win for Chris Rodriguez and a situation that lets the Angels take their time making decisions on what would be best for him.

[Angelsjunky]

On 3/6/2021 at 10:50 AM, Inside Pitch said:

Make that argument ..     

I can see a lot of arguments why the team would want to do that and it benefits them -- but there is very little about a guy that's had almost no experience as a SP working as a RP that will help him become a better SP.  Irregular work schedule also ups the chance of injury

Chris Rodriguez was drafted in 2016.  He's made 22 career starts -- 19 of them in rookie ball as an 18 year old.  He's 22.

The minor league season doesn't begin until May, right? My main argument is that if he continues to dominate in ST, I'd rather see him in Anaheim in the bullpen (and/or tandem starting) in April, then in minor league camp doing what he was doing all of last summer. By the end of April, the Angels can decide on what to do with him, with the ultimate goal being as a starter. If it looks like he needs more time to work on some things, send him to AA or AAA. If he's ready, he's ready - why send him to the minors if he's ready for the show?

As for pitching out of the bullpen this year, It used to be much more common that starters served an "apprenticeship" in the bullpen for a half a year or so. Lots of great pitchers have done as much and I don't think it necessarily hurts their future as starters. 

Again, I think chances are that they play it cautious and he starts the year in minor league camp, then in AA or AAA. I have no issue with that. But I do think they should go with what makes for him, not just follow conventional wisdom because "its what you do." He may be one of those rare pitchers that is ready for the majors sooner (with fewer minor league innings logged) than most. And if we consider last summer as equivalent to minor league innings, then he has closer to 200 IP pitched in the minors.

[Second Base]

On 3/6/2021 at 3:50 AM, Angelsjunky said:

Longenhagen has said before that he thinks CRod should be converted, which I agree is dumb - at least at this point. But he could also be thinking that his stuff plays well enough for the majors right now and that he should be challenged.

Normally I'd say just send him down to AA and have him work his way up, but I think he'll be wasted--and wasting time--in minor league camp, so I like the idea that he's in the big league bullpen in April. If he pitches well, keep him in the pen all year long, gradually stretching him out to 2-3+ innings, as a kind of "apprenticeship" for a starting role next year. I think there's a valid argument that 70ish innings in the major league bullpen is more valuable for him than 120ish IP in the minors, as far as preparing for a starting role next year.

How often does a temporary internship in the bullpen lead to a successful career as a starter? Now compare it to successful starters that bid their time in the minors.

I have no idea how those numbers line up but it seems to me that most guys that start in the bullpen, stay there, unless it's a late season cameo. It's newsworthy when someone successfully mashed that transition in roles.

[tdawg87]

36 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

Lets be serious, He's only faced two batter and yes it was immpressive. but its only two batters. 

I can assure you, the people who are high on him don't really care what he did the other day. He isn't valued because he looked good against 2 batters in ST.

[AngelStew43]

I saw the game on Wednesday when CRod pitched.  It is no wonder that every GM that calls inquires about him in trade.  

Glad he isn't going anywhere, except to our pitching staff.  With Detmers and Rodriguez waiting to take spots in the rotation, our pitching may actually be a strength. 

[Angelsjunky]

2 minutes ago, Second Base said:

How often does a temporary internship in the bullpen lead to a successful career as a starter? Now compare it to successful starters that bid their time in the minors.

I have no idea how those numbers line up but it seems to me that most guys that start in the bullpen, stay there, unless it's a late season cameo. It's newsworthy when someone successfully mashed that transition in roles.

It used to be more common. I just think that Chris Rodriguez should be treated as an unusual case, for a few reasons: He has few minor league innings but could be ready right now; Covid last year muddies the waters, but I think it is valid to consider his 80 IP last summer as real minor league experience. My point being, conventional wisdom only takes you so far and the Angels should treat him as a unique case.

Again, I have no problem with starting him in the minors. But I could also see why they'd want to start him in the major league bullpen and then go from there.

[Second Base]

23 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

It used to be more common. I just think that Chris Rodriguez should be treated as an unusual case, for a few reasons: He has few minor league innings but could be ready right now; Covid last year muddies the waters, but I think it is valid to consider his 80 IP last summer as real minor league experience. My point being, conventional wisdom only takes you so far and the Angels should treat him as a unique case.

Again, I have no problem with starting him in the minors. But I could also see why they'd want to start him in the major league bullpen and then go from there.

I've just standardized the alt site time as Advanced A Ball only to make sense of it in my brain. I would start both Detmers and Rodriguez in AA.