Angels sign Jose Quintana (1 year, $8 million)

[failos]

12 minutes ago, Fourts said:

The problem is when people who use "analytics" think it's the end all and ALWAYS correct.  It is a great tool to help find something that's not obvious (immediate results).  Many times it's correct -- especially compared to simply a scout/evaluator.  But when it's used as the 100% always correct and the other guy is wrong argument -- that's when i have a problem.  You can tout the examples that support analytics proofs on guys.....but it's not 100%.  There are many, many analytic misses.  Just like the greatest talent evaluator/scout isn't 100% right all the time.  It drives me crazy when someone uses analytics to support their position and they arrogantly think that that automatically makes them correct every time.  No it does not.  For example, I am pretty sure you (IP) were a big proponent of Jason Heyward when he was a Cardinal FA back in the day and you were hoping/suggesting the Angels sign him.  How did that $184M contract turn out analytics wise?  I'm not crapping on analytics -- it's a fantastic tool (maybe the best non-scouting tool).  But it's not a perfect tool.  It's part of the overall evaluation tools that are available for scouting -- with great results but nowhere near infallible.    

Most people here wanted Heyward.... 

[Inside Pitch]

34 minutes ago, Fourts said:

The problem is when people who use "analytics" think it's the end all and ALWAYS correct.  It is a great tool to help find something that's not obvious (immediate results).  Many times it's correct -- especially compared to simply a scout/evaluator.  But when it's used as the 100% always correct and the other guy is wrong argument -- that's when i have a problem.  You can tout the examples that support analytics proofs on guys.....but it's not 100%.  There are many, many analytic misses.  Just like the greatest talent evaluator/scout isn't 100% right all the time.  It drives me crazy when someone uses analytics to support their position and they arrogantly think that that automatically makes them correct every time.  No it does not.  For example, I am pretty sure you (IP) were a big proponent of Jason Heyward when he was a Cardinal FA back in the day and you were hoping/suggesting the Angels sign him.  How did that $184M contract turn out analytics wise?  I'm not crapping on analytics -- it's a fantastic tool (maybe the best non-scouting tool).  But it's not a perfect tool.  It's part of the overall evaluation tools that are available for scouting -- with great results but nowhere near infallible.    

Well, I have a problem believing anything is right 100% of the time.  I don't view analytics as flawless -- I have often pointed out it's failings such as when it comes to defensive metrics.  What I do believe is that analytics help cut down on the misses and false reads and I first started on that path after the Angels re-signed Jim Abbott after trading for him.  They based the decision on his ERA and the indicators pretty much argued it was a mistake.

I think you have me mistaken for someone else on Heyward.  I was in the "great if it happens" camp.  I do however remember believing his defense lessened the concerns about his bat, I also liked that he was super young for a FA.  But I think you have me confused for Strad or Chuck who both really wanted him.   

[Erstad Grit]

IP  

I will respond because I don't want you to feel like I'm ignoring you, but I have no intentions of an ongoing back-forth feud. I didn't mention you in my post so I hope you don't feel like I was specifically "gunning" for you. 

Yes I still see value in era and whip. That doesn't make me anti-analytics. I feel there can be room for both. I realize that some might roll their eyes if I point to whip as something of value. That will lead to differing evaluation on players. I get that. 

Yes I think 2018-2019 Tehran was a better SP than Quintana, and era and whip were factors for me. I'm also fine with other people having different takes. I wouldn't insist I'm right.

I said 2020 wasn't worth discussing because Quintana pitched 10 innings and Teheran was terrible. I didn't say that from a lens of arrogance. 

I maintain that Quintana hasn't been very good since 2017, and 2018 -2019 Teheran was a better SP. In fact I think 2021 Teheran will be a better SP. I'm fine with you or anyone disagreeing with me. These thoughts are my opinions and not facts. I could be wrong. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

If I have waffled on a position to look smarter, sounded arrogant or dismissive to you, I genuinely apologize. As a fan many of us overreact in the moment. I recall game day chats where Vlad, Salmon, etc were crucified. Needing an ace and watching so many rarely available ones go to other teams has been frustrating. 

Feel free to dismiss my thoughts and conclude I'm a hypocrite. Honestly you might be right. To me it feels like at times when you engage in a player evaluation banter, you give the impression that your opinion is weightier and thus more valid. As if you take joy in dismantling someone's opinions and proving them wrong. Jeff Fletcher would be a great example of one whose opinion carries more weight than anyone here, yet doesn't lord it over us. IP you're a smart person, I'm asking to to consider the possibility that you have at times been a bit arrogant with your opinions. 

That being said IP, if Angels traded for someone, your opinion on the player is one I'd be more interested to read than others. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Erstad Grit

[Erstad Grit]

21 minutes ago, failos said:

Most people here wanted Heyward.... 

and Carl Crawford 

[Inside Pitch]

22 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

IP  

I will respond because I don't want you to feel like I'm ignoring you, but I have no intentions of an ongoing back-forth feud. I didn't mention you in my post so I hope you don't feel like I was specifically "gunning" for you. 

Yes I still see value in era and whip. That doesn't make me anti-analytics. I feel there can be room for both. I realize that some might roll their eyes if I point to whip as something of value. That will lead to differing evaluation on players. I get that. 

Yes I think 2018-2019 Tehran was a better SP than Quintana, and era and whip were factors for me. I'm also fine with other people having different takes. I wouldn't insist I'm right.

I said 2020 wasn't worth discussing because Quintana pitched 10 innings and Teheran was terrible. I didn't say that from a lens of arrogance. 

I maintain that Quintana hasn't been very good since 2017, and 2018 -2019 Teheran was a better SP. In fact I think 2021 Teheran will be a better SP. I'm fine with you or anyone disagreeing with me. These thoughts are my opinions and not facts. I could be wrong. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

If I have waffled on a position to look smarter, sounded arrogant or dismissive to you, I genuinely apologize. As a fan many of us overreact in the moment. I recall game day chats where Vlad, Salmon, etc were crucified. Needing an ace and watching so many rarely available ones go to other teams has been frustrating. 

Feel free to dismiss my thoughts and conclude I'm a hypocrite. Honestly you might be right. To me it feels like at times when you engage in a player evaluation banter, you give the impression that your opinion is weightier and thus more valid. As if you take joy in dismantling someone's opinions and proving them wrong. Jeff Fletcher would be a great example of one whose opinion carries more weight than anyone here, yet doesn't lord it over us. IP you're a smart person, I'm asking to to consider the possibility that you have at times been a smudge arrogant  of your opinions. 

That being said IP, if Angels traded for someone, your opinion on the player is one I'd be more interested to read than others. 

EG, 

I don't care if you're gunning for me or not, nor would I take offense if you did ignore me..  I don't mean that to be acerbic or argumentative, it's just a message board and it's not worth getting our panties in a bunch over my dude.  Also, I never said anything about you being anti-analytics..  read it again.  I questioned your willingness to buy into newer data.  

Your previous posts made your position perfectly clear, and yes -- you saying "it's not worth discussing" is you basically saying you're 100% right and there can be no other conclusion -- just own it.   Ditto in one breath calling a guy a solid 3 or 4 and in the next saying he's below league average.  Which is it?  

Teheran chances of being better this year were remote before, they are almost non existent now.  Check his status.

As far as the rest goes..  When you point fingers at others while behaving in the manner you were just critical of..  well, there's a word for that..  No amount of humility after the fact will change hypocrisy for what it is

For all your wanting me to own up to bad behavior, I'll say this..  There have been plenty of times when I've tried to clarify my position, or apologized for not being clear enough and that MY lack of clarity could lead someone to believe my wording was intended in a manner it wasn't.  I try to be thorough and in trying to be concise at times I can come across as curt, but as I said previously I make no effort to hide when I'm being pointed.   

If I have a failing it's that I don't suffer fools lightly and I call out bad takes when I see them.  If you think that makes me seem arrogant -- I'll wear that.  But I'll not apologize for calling out stupid statements -- and yes, you can fault me for that all you want.  I'm good with it. 

 

[Taylor]

40 minutes ago, failos said:

Most people here wanted Heyward.... 

 

18 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

and Carl Crawford 

And Randy Winn.

[Erstad Grit]

44 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

EG, 

I don't care if you're gunning for me or not, nor would I take offense if you did ignore me..  I don't mean that to be acerbic or argumentative, it's just a message board and it's not worth getting our panties in a bunch over my dude.  Also, I never said anything about you being anti-analytics..  read it again.  I questioned your willingness to buy into newer data.  

Your previous posts made your position perfectly clear, and yes -- you saying "it's not worth discussing" is you basically saying you're 100% right and there can be no other conclusion -- just own it.   Ditto in one breath calling a guy a solid 3 or 4 and in the next saying he's below league average.  Which is it?  

Teheran chances of being better this year were remote before, they are almost non existent now.  Check his status.

As far as the rest goes..  When you point fingers at others while behaving in the manner you were just critical of..  well, there's a word for that..  No amount of humility after the fact will change hypocrisy for what it is

For all your wanting me to own up to bad behavior, I'll say this..  There have been plenty of times when I've tried to clarify my position, or apologized for not being clear enough and that MY lack of clarity could lead someone to believe my wording was intended in a manner it wasn't.  I try to be thorough and in trying to be concise at times I can come across as curt, but as I said previously I make no effort to hide when I'm being pointed.   

If I have a failing it's that I don't suffer fools lightly and I call out bad takes when I see them.  If you think that makes me seem arrogant -- I'll wear that.  But I'll not apologize for calling out stupid statements -- and yes, you can fault me for that all you want.  I'm good with it. 

 

I'll own that I wrote poorly. Allow me to clarify.

In my opinion 2020 doesn't offer us much in comparing Teheran and Quintana. Quintana was hurt and Teheran looked awful in a strange year. 

"If I have a failing it's that I don't suffer fools lightly and I call out bad takes when I see them.  If you think that makes me seem arrogant -- I'll wear that"

I suppose that's sorta my point IP. You aren't the anointed one who gets to decide what a bad take or stupidity is. If you are indeed that gifted as a baseball evaluator I'd suggest you pursue a job within MLB. Otherwise you're just a fan like all of us. 

If you don't mind I'd like to move along now, but I look forward to reading your thoughts on various topics. 

[Erstad Grit]

53 minutes ago, Taylor said:

 

And Randy Winn.

I admit i wanted him

[Inside Pitch]

42 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

I'll own that I wrote poorly. Allow me to clarify.

In my opinion 2020 doesn't offer us much in comparing Teheran and Quintana. Quintana was hurt and Teheran looked awful in a strange year. 

"If I have a failing it's that I don't suffer fools lightly and I call out bad takes when I see them.  If you think that makes me seem arrogant -- I'll wear that"

I suppose that's sorta my point IP. You aren't the anointed one who gets to decide what a bad take or stupidity is. If you are indeed that gifted as a baseball evaluator I'd suggest you pursue a job within MLB. Otherwise you're just a fan like all of us. 

If you don't mind I'd like to move along now, but I look forward to reading your thoughts on various topics. 

So move on?

LOL..  "the annointed one"..... "the smart posters"  Bro, your inferiority complex isn't my problem..  Maybe it's not intentional but you keep throwing these tiny daggers while at the same time wanting to come off as being above such petty things..  Seriously spare me the dime store psychology, at least until you can actually muster the courage to admit to your hypocrisy.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, cals said:

Are you guys gonna make out now?

Not touching him until after we have banged it out first.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, cals said:

I think you’ve banged him pretty hard already.

 batter up, Cowboy

[Docwaukee]

you know it's bad when you make @cals feel uncomfortable.  

[Docwaukee]

9 minutes ago, cals said:

I was just searching for a animated gif of two dudes making out.

check your bookmarks.  

[Angels Fan Forever]

It’s only two starts. Some here need to chill. 

[Inside Pitch]

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

16 hours ago, cals said:

Or Tombstone.  He was wonderful in Tombstone.

You sound like Ike in that movie, when theyre watching Zanes stage work

[ten ocho recon scout]

12 hours ago, Taylor said:

 

And Randy Winn.

anyone want to bump the fuck yu, we got pujols threads?

[Lou]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

anyone want to bump the fuck yu, we got pujols threads?

[Jay]

9 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

6.04 ERA is top 3 in the AL but not in a good way.

 

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

6.04 ERA is top 3 in the AL but not in a good way.

Yup, and yet, it's really not indicative of how well they have pitched.  Cobb has a 4.63 ERA...

Check them out -- it's a trip!

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=1&rost=0&age=0

[failos]

On 1/19/2021 at 10:33 PM, Φαήλος said:

Teheranesque

Smart man

[failos]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:14 PM, Warfarin said:

Incredible value.  Only a one year commitment.  Fantastic move.

Dummy

[failos]

On 1/20/2021 at 8:30 AM, Torridd said:

Seriously? Like Teheran? It seems Quintana is a lot better. I'm being serious. Please explain.

Lol

[failos]

On 1/20/2021 at 5:57 PM, Warfarin said:

Yeah, it's odd to me to see all the comparisons to Teheran, Harvey, and Cahill.  Those were Eppler's moves.  Minasian is a different GM.  Quintana has a much better recent history than those pitchers had.  The only commonality is they signed a one year deal.  

Is Quintana an ace?  Of course not.  But for a 1/8 deal, he's a solid bet to be a solid #3, and that's tremendous value.  Minasian did a great job.

Lol

[failos]

On 1/20/2021 at 7:20 PM, Stradling said:

No

Yes