Dead Horse Thread (Bauer or a Bullpen)

[Stradling]

So Bauer is going to get at least $25 million a season.  If he were to sign with the Angels you’d almost have to assume he would make less in year one.  So assuming he would only make $20 million in year one.  Would you rather have $20 million to spend on Bauer or $20 million to spend on a lock down bullpen and start the season with what we have.  For the bullpen, if you have $20 million to spend you’d have to think that is enough to get Hand or Yates and Hendricks.  Then if the team is performing Arte can up the budget and then they could trade for the best starter available.    

[Justin]

Bauer. I do not like spending big money on a bullpen, and I'm tired of hoping Heaney finally puts it all together and that Canning and Ohtani don't get injured. 

I have my doubts about Bauer, but I would love to start the season knowing we have a clear #1. 

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Justin said:

Bauer. I do not like spending big money on a bullpen, and I'm tired of hoping Heaney finally puts it all together and that Canning and Ohtani don't get injured. 

I have my doubts about Bauer, but I would love to start the season knowing we have a clear #1. 

Oh I get that you don’t like spending big money, but this is a year where you might be able to get 3 legit studs for around $20 million.  

[angelsnationtalk]

I'm starting to really like the idea of a trade for Castillo or Gray / one of Castellanos or Moose if Fletcher is involved. Hopefully that leaves room to get Bauer still but i'm not sure. 

We need starting pitching. Period. The bullpen is already stronger than it was last year and we can't rely on that to get us into the playoffs. The bullpen is for innings 7-9 (maybe 6-9) Not 5-9 to only have them burnt out by September.

It's time the Angels find their #1 and #2 guy. 

I'll stay true to my word. If the Angels don't find those 2 guys then it's another year gone. Playoffs maybe, but not World Series. 

[Justin]

Just now, Stradling said:

Oh I get that you don’t like spending big money, but this is a year where you might be able to get 3 legit studs for around $20 million.  

3 legit studs in the bullpen would be pretty cool, but I'm still going to go with having an ace. When was the last time you felt that we had an ace to start a season? (Weaver in 2013? Is there someone I'm forgetting?)  

[goldenGlove]

I’d go with Bauer. Investing a lot in elite starting pitching just generally seems to work out better than investing a lot in elite relievers. After signing him, you can look to trade for relievers, which I’d think will cost less in prospect capital than if you decided to sign relievers and trade for a starter. 

[OhtaniSan]

I think the remaining payroll space we have has to be used for starting pitching. Like @angelsnationtalk said, if the Angels don't get that #1 (and ideally a strong #2 as well), the 2021 season will just be another disappointing one. By strengthening the rotation, you also improve the bullpen by pushing guys like Barria (2.89 era in relief last year) to the bullpen. On top of that, a stronger rotation will last longer into games and not overwork the bullpen, which is the Angels problem.

 

Maybe some version of a Gray/Castillo/Moose/Castellanos trade in the answer. However, such a trade will absolutely cost prospect capital in addition to crippling payroll for next 2-3 years. Personally, I like the Bauer signing, especially if the AAV is 25mil or less, because we can save our prospect capital for an additional trade if needed while still getting that ace. 

[Docwaukee]

my first choice would be Bauer + trade for another top or near top of the rotation arm

2. Bauer + mediocre arm + cheap pen arm

3. Bauer + cheap rotation arm + more expensive pen arm

4. trade for TOR arm + mediocre pen arm + more expensive pen arm

and so on and so forth.  mixed in would be a cheap option to platoon in RF who could also play CF.  

C is at the very bottom of my list.  In fact, I am fine with going into 2021 with what we have.  

[Erstad Grit]

If Ohtani is healthy its like adding an Ace!

[Dtwncbad]

You sign the starter.  I believe It is easier to trade for the right bullpen pieces than it is to land the right starter in a trade.

[floplag]

If I MUST choose, I go bullpen.  This team could win with an average rotations and a lock down pen.
Its not sexy, but it is what it is.
WE have too many other spots that need addressing.
Bauer only happens if Arte busts the budget for a couple years, there is no other realistic scenario.
I hope he does, but if were forced into choose id rather strengthen the team every day and shorten games, than be better 1 out of every 5. 

[Pancake Bear]

3 hours ago, floplag said:

If I MUST choose, I go bullpen.  This team could win with an average rotations and a lock down pen.

I don't necessarily disagree with the latter half. Where I'd nitpick the argument is that relievers are so volatile (more so than starters) that it's far too easy for that to go wrong. I've seen teams try that approach before and get burned badly. 

[tdawg87]

10 hours ago, Stradling said:

Oh I get that you don’t like spending big money, but this is a year where you might be able to get 3 legit studs for around $20 million.  

There's far more risk in signing relievers than signing a starter. Relief pitchers are the most unpredictable players in baseball, so spending $20 million on them sounds like a really bad idea.

I could certainly see bringing in one guy at 5 million, or maybe a little more, but there's no way any smart GM spends that much money on a bullpen. Remember, we're also spending about 8.5 million on Iglesias, and 1.15 million on that other guy so that would be nearly $30 million allocated to relief pitchers. Not a smart idea.

[Revad]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

There's far more risk in signing relievers than signing a starter. Relief pitchers are the most unpredictable players in baseball, so spending $20 million on them sounds like a really bad idea.

I could certainly see bringing in one guy at 5 million, or maybe a little more, but there's no way any smart GM spends that much money on a bullpen. Remember, we're also spending about 8.5 million on Iglesias, and 1.15 million on that other guy so that would be nearly $30 million allocated to relief pitchers. Not a smart idea.

I agree.  BTW- I’m impatient to see the Angels in the World Series, but if they stick to second level FA this year, hold on to big pieces of the farm for now and have a little luck they still make the playoffs.  Because of the limited draft last year, this year’s draft will be very interesting- a second rounder might be quite valuable.  Minasian has brought in some talent in the front office and their job is to see through all the uncertainty and into the future.  In other words pick the right players.

One more reliever, as tdawg says above, plus a second tier starter, a starter with upside, Pederson and catching depth is the way I would go.  The closer, SS and two SP are on expiring contracts so planning for the future seems prudent.  As others have said, waiting for the trade deadline to possibly trade for a #1 SP makes sense to me.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

13 hours ago, Stradling said:

So Bauer is going to get at least $25 million a season.  If he were to sign with the Angels you’d almost have to assume he would make less in year one.  So assuming he would only make $20 million in year one.  Would you rather have $20 million to spend on Bauer or $20 million to spend on a lock down bullpen and start the season with what we have.  For the bullpen, if you have $20 million to spend you’d have to think that is enough to get Hand or Yates and Hendricks.  Then if the team is performing Arte can up the budget and then they could trade for the best starter available.    

Bauer

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

12 hours ago, Stradling said:

Oh I get that you don’t like spending big money, but this is a year where you might be able to get 3 legit studs for around $20 million.  

Bauer or another 1st tier starting pitcher. We only need to raise our spending for 1 year as Pujols' contract expires next October, and Upton's 1 year later. I'm so tired hoping for reclamation projects to return to their previous status.

[tdawg87]

52 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Bauer or another 1st tier starting pitcher. We only need to raise our spending for 1 year as Pujols' contract expires next October, and Upton's 1 year later. I'm so tired hoping for reclamation projects to return to their previous status.

I agree with you but one thing I'll point out is that raises in arbitration as well as filling the rotation holes left by Heaney and Bundy pretty much wipe out any relief we get from Pujols' contract.

[Angels 1961]

First bullpen needs a couple of pieces. We have 5 or 6 in pen now, Iglesias, Mayers, Claudio, Pena and Buttrey. Sandoval or Barria if not traded or in rotation can be the long man. Rule 5 pick Jose Rivera will get a look. Tons of free agent relief pitcher on the market to choose from, so bullpen not problem. Starting pitching is the need. Sign Jake Odorizzi and trade for another, Carlos Carrasco, Joe Musgrove, Blake Snell, Sonny Gray, Luis Castillo, Darvish and others. Putting in all your money on Bauer to me a mistake. Bauer like Cole will use Angels to get more money from Mets. If you want to kill this dead horse post run it at Santa Anita.

[Stradling]

3 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

There's far more risk in signing relievers than signing a starter. Relief pitchers are the most unpredictable players in baseball, so spending $20 million on them sounds like a really bad idea.

I could certainly see bringing in one guy at 5 million, or maybe a little more, but there's no way any smart GM spends that much money on a bullpen. Remember, we're also spending about 8.5 million on Iglesias, and 1.15 million on that other guy so that would be nearly $30 million allocated to relief pitchers. Not a smart idea.

No, I totally get it.  I said $20 Million because I think Hendricks, who’s the cream of the crop this year will get around $9 million and the other two around $5-6 million a year. Compared to last year where Blake Treinen, coming off a really bad year got $10 million. 

[floplag]

6 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

I don't necessarily disagree with the latter half. Where I'd nitpick the argument is that relievers are so volatile (more so than starters) that it's far too easy for that to go wrong. I've seen teams try that approach before and get burned badly. 

Granted, also easier to replace and less expansive therefore the risk is far less than overpaying for a SP.
WE all know and has been said many time here was terrible value a FA SP can be.  Any signing has risk, i think that risk is far less on relievers. 
Im also being realistic here... unless we bust the budget its really the only way to go.

[halonatic13]

10 hours ago, floplag said:

If I MUST choose, I go bullpen.  This team could win with an average rotations and a lock down pen.
Its not sexy, but it is what it is.
WE have too many other spots that need addressing.
Bauer only happens if Arte busts the budget for a couple years, there is no other realistic scenario.
I hope he does, but if were forced into choose id rather strengthen the team every day and shorten games, than be better 1 out of every 5. 

NO NO NO!!!!  What good is a lock down bullpen if our starting pitching gives up 5 runs in 2 innings????  Tired of this crap.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, halonatic13 said:

NO NO NO!!!!  What good is a lock down bullpen if our starting pitching gives up 5 runs in 2 innings????  Tired of this crap.

You don’t need to exaggerate to make your point.  Because if you are afraid of the starting rotation having a 22 ERA, what good is one starter going to do?  

[halonatic13]

Not if we get 2 starters over relievers.  Our bullpen is already better than last year.  2 legit starters puts us in the playoffs if everyone plays the way they should.  

[eligrba]

I think both the starting pitching and bullpen need to improve, but the starting pitching needs to improve to the point it does not put unnecessary stress on the bullpen.  I would guess that a bullpen works best when not expected to pitch almost half of every game.

I can't remember a season when the bullpen's primary function was to  close out the game.  It seemed that the primary function of the Angel's bullpen for the past few years was to either mop up after terrible starts or pitch 4 innings of lock-down baseball.  Both of which are unsustainable over the course of a season.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, halonatic13 said:

NO NO NO!!!!  What good is a lock down bullpen if our starting pitching gives up 5 runs in 2 innings????  Tired of this crap.

And what good then is one guy that doesnt every 5th day?  It cuts both ways.
The big thing these days is the third time thru the lineup, so, lets remove it from the equation as much as possible.