Taking on contracts to acquire good pitching - Is it worth it?

[BTH]

I don't see a package including all 4 being moved. Maybe one of Castillo/Gray + one of Castellanos/Moustakas get moved, but the Reds would still want a lot in return.

I'd be willing to take on Castellanos or Moustakas to get Castillo or Gray, if the ask isn't outrageous.

[greginpsca]

Taking on these contracts is not only stupid, it's Sidney Powell stupid.

[mmc]

Curious as to why people keep acting like this is a possibility?  There has been no talk of any team being interested in taking a lesser return for one of their high end pitchers if they can attach a contract they want to dump.

[mmc]

Also no, this would be incredibly stupid because even if this team acquires an ace, it ultimately doesn’t change much as even if we acquire a pitcher worth 5-7 wins, that still doesn’t even make us a .500 team if you add those wins to last years team.  This team’s entire pitching staff needs an overhaul to make us competitive, blowing our entire budget on an ace doesn’t move the needle nearly as much as some seem to think, and only handicaps our ability to make the further pitching upgrades we need.

[DMVol]

13 hours ago, Lou said:

Help me out here. If we can add $50M to the payroll, couldn't we just sign the necessary free agents and keep our prospects?

Fair point, obviously.....I guess you weigh all the layers of it....Can you just sign Bauer and another FA who would, together, be as good as Castillo and Gray?  Dunno....Bauer and (hypothetically) Odorizzi cost you a draft pick and Bauer maybe gets a huge 5/6 year deal....Gray and Castillo would be shorter and cheaper commitments, as would Moose and Castellanos....but you aren't going to get Castillo and Gray just by taking on bad contracts....and that's the problem....

[tdawg87]

9 minutes ago, mmc said:

Curious as to why people keep acting like this is a possibility?  There has been no talk of any team being interested in taking a lesser return for one of their high end pitchers if they can attach a contract they want to dump.

It's a slow offseason. 

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, mmc said:

Also no, this would be incredibly stupid because even if this team acquires an ace, it ultimately doesn’t change much as even if we acquire a pitcher worth 5-7 wins, that still doesn’t even make us a .500 team if you add those wins to last years team.  This team’s entire pitching staff needs an overhaul to make us competitive, blowing our entire budget on an ace doesn’t move the needle nearly as much as some seem to think, and only handicaps our ability to make the further pitching upgrades we need.

So if they acquire Bauer, get a 4th outfielder type of guy and a guy like Suzuki you don’t think we are a .500 team?  

[Hubs]

I thought taking on a larger contract would be worth it, to get a higher end controllable SP, but while Castillo makes sense, German Marquez and Charlie Blackmon is a better fit than taking on Castilo and Castellanos.

I'd rather take on David Price if it would net us a prospect.

[mmc]

44 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So if they acquire Bauer, get a 4th outfielder type of guy and a guy like Suzuki you don’t think we are a .500 team?  

with another OF, Suzuki, and the Iglesiai yes, but my point is that one ace doesn't have the impact on a pitching staff that is all around below average as people seem to think.

[Duren, Duren]

Too many moving parts to a huge multiplayer acquisition. The Angels were ninth in payroll last season at just under 70 million.

Adding these four players would seriously elevate that number. Would Arte do that for this kind of a deal? He usually spends big for select high profile individuals. Money for these guys negates signing the type of player he likes. And with Upton and Pujols still on the books it severely restricts other options.

And what about the return? It still is a baseball deal. The Reds are rebuilding and won't gut their team for low level prospects. Some quality will have to go back their way. 

Their two pitchers would help, but spending money on Bauer without giving up prospects, screwing the salary structure and having a major domino effect with the roster may be smarter. Or just narrow things down to smaller trades. 

 

 

[Pancake Bear]

6 hours ago, eligrba said:

To play Captain Hindsight, if the Angels did sign Cole, they would probably be in the same position trying to improve the pitching with a lot less money.

 

No. They would effectively replace Teheran with Cole. That improves their pitching substantially, because they already had Bundy. 

That means, no Teheran or Sandoval innings. Bullpen has less games to blow. 

Big question is offense, since if they get Cole I don't think they get Rendon. So that's an open question, but if they get both, they make the playoffs last year easily. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

I wish we could. I only can see us doing something like a UPTON to the Dodgers for PRICE. and an exchange of minor leaguers. Or, something with Rengifo and a Pitcher like we tried last year. But, then again, would Arte allow Perry to go back to the Dodgers well?

[Pancake Bear]

5 hours ago, mmc said:

Also no, this would be incredibly stupid because even if this team acquires an ace, it ultimately doesn’t change much as even if we acquire a pitcher worth 5-7 wins, that still doesn’t even make us a .500 team if you add those wins to last years team.  This team’s entire pitching staff needs an overhaul to make us competitive, blowing our entire budget on an ace doesn’t move the needle nearly as much as some seem to think, and only handicaps our ability to make the further pitching upgrades we need.

Lol, wut?

[Docwaukee]

6 hours ago, mmc said:

Also no, this would be incredibly stupid because even if this team acquires an ace, it ultimately doesn’t change much as even if we acquire a pitcher worth 5-7 wins, that still doesn’t even make us a .500 team if you add those wins to last years team.  This team’s entire pitching staff needs an overhaul to make us competitive, blowing our entire budget on an ace doesn’t move the needle nearly as much as some seem to think, and only handicaps our ability to make the further pitching upgrades we need.

 

5 hours ago, mmc said:

with another OF, Suzuki, and the Iglesiai yes, but my point is that one ace doesn't have the impact on a pitching staff that is all around below average as people seem to think.

what?

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

 

what?

[mmc]

My point is that the amount of money that will be added to our payroll by acquiring an ace + a crappy contract will prohibit us from making other major additions to our pitching staff, which is in need of several.  Spending money to acquire multiple pitching upgrades (which we need as our staff is all around below average) is more important than blowing the budget on a single ace.

[BTH]

Here's a question: would you trade David Fletcher in a deal for Castillo or Gray? Fans love him, but from a strictly baseball standpoint, they could probably sign a second basemen in free agency who could perform similarly to Fletcher at a reasonable cost.

The reason why you would do it because you can sign a second basemen out there for a reasonable amount, but you can't sign an elite starting pitcher unless you're shell out a ton of money.

[mmc]

10 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Here's a question: would you trade David Fletcher in a deal for Castillo or Gray? Fans love him, but from a strictly baseball standpoint, they could probably sign a second basemen in free agency who could perform similarly to Fletcher at a reasonable cost.

The reason why you would do it because you can sign a second basemen out there for a reasonable amount, but you can't sign an elite starting pitcher unless you're shell out a ton of money.

Gray no, Castillo maybe

[Warfarin]

1 hour ago, Trendon said:

Here's a question: would you trade David Fletcher in a deal for Castillo or Gray? Fans love him, but from a strictly baseball standpoint, they could probably sign a second basemen in free agency who could perform similarly to Fletcher at a reasonable cost.

The reason why you would do it because you can sign a second basemen out there for a reasonable amount, but you can't sign an elite starting pitcher unless you're shell out a ton of money.

Absolutely you trade Fletcher in a deal for Castillo, 100%.

Fletcher has 4 years of control, Castillo has 3 years of control.

DJ LeMahieu, who is an elite 2B, probably will be hard pressed to get more than 4/80.

Bauer, a very good SP but not elite, will probably get 6 years and somewhere between 150-180 million.

A very good SP is worth WAY more than a very good 2B on the open market.  It is very hard to find good pitching, but it is not hard to find a good 2B.

[DMVol]

8 hours ago, mmc said:

with another OF, Suzuki, and the Iglesiai yes, but my point is that one ace doesn't have the impact on a pitching staff that is all around below average as people seem to think.

Would you rather have 1 Bauer or 2 decent starters, maybe #3 types....no brainer for me, you take the 2 #3’s....

[Warfarin]

8 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Would you rather have 1 Bauer or 2 decent starters, maybe #3 types....no brainer for me, you take the 2 #3’s....

I think it's conditional.

For example, would you rather have:

1.  Bauer, Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria, or

2.  Bundy, Heaney, Odorizzi, Quintana, Canning?

I would probably argue #1 is better than #2.

I think though in that sense this is where we need to leverage our prospects in a trade.  

If we part with prospects to acquire one of Snell, Gray, Castillo, etc, then for sure a rotation of Snell/Castillo/Gray, Bundy, Heaney, Quintana (or someone in that category), Canning is superior, and would cost significantly less than just paying Bauer outright.

We'd lose future talent, but we'd have a strong rotation and would have cash leftover to still upgrade backup C and possibly RF.

[angelsnationtalk]

17 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Would you rather have 1 Bauer or 2 decent starters, maybe #3 types....no brainer for me, you take the 2 #3’s....

Don't we already have like 8 #3 starters on our team

[Pancake Bear]

25 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Would you rather have 1 Bauer or 2 decent starters, maybe #3 types....no brainer for me, you take the 2 #3’s....

I keep Barria and grab the best pitcher available. We don't need more 5's. 

[Pancake Bear]

31 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

DJ LeMahieu, who is an elite 2B, probably will be hard pressed to get more than 4/80.

Fwiw, that's what the Yankees are reportedly offering. So far he's holding firm on 5/125. I suspect his agent is trying to get other teams to bid the Yankees up, but no one is really biting because no one seriously thinks he's leaving NY. 

[Warfarin]

3 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Fwiw, that's what the Yankees are reportedly offering. So far he's holding firm on 5/125. I suspect his agent is trying to get other teams to bid the Yankees up, but no one is really biting because no one seriously thinks he's leaving NY. 

He may want 5/125 but there's no way he gets anything close to it.  No way he eclipses 100mil.  Maybe 90mil, max.