Do the Angels really need to sign or trade for two starting pitchers?

[BTH]

3 hours ago, Hubs said:

Exactly!!!

I think Barria and Sandoval are fine guys for the last spot in the rotation. Even if Ohtani is a full time hitter, which essentially moves them to a regular five man rotation. 

I’d rather have a competent defensive outfield and a catcher who can hit.

They need an Ace.

 

So you put Barria or Sandoval as the 5th starter behind A Starter You Acquire, Bundy, Heaney, and Canning.

Then one or two starters get hurt, and now you're putting Jose Suarez into the rotation. Do you not see the problem? They need depth because we've seen every year that they get killed when they have no depth. That's why Suarez and Sandoval had to come up before they were ready, and it might have ruined Suarez' development.

[Hubs]

3 minutes ago, Trendon said:

So you put Barria or Sandoval as the 5th starter behind A Starter You Acquire, Bundy, Heaney, and Canning.

Then one or two starters get hurt, and now you're putting Jose Suarez into the rotation. Do you not see the problem? They need depth because we've seen every year that they get killed when they have no depth. That's why Suarez and Sandoval had to come up before they were ready, and it might have ruined Suarez' development.

They have depth at AAA, and just so we’re clear, Ohtani is my 5th starter and Barria my 6th. Barria gets maybe 12-15 starts and Ohtani gets 20-22. 

Heaney, Canning, Bundy and Bauer are getting 30 or More. 

if Ohtani gets hurt, they go to a five man rotation. Barria gets more starts.

If someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Barria gets fully moved into the rotation and Sandoval steps in for Barria.

if a second someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Jake Faria or Felix Pena or Jose Suarez steps in for the 6th man. Detmers may be ready by August anyway and he’d be the guy they call on them anyway.

Chris Rodriguez also could step in.

[Hubs]

54 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Sorry but in my mind starting just 2 or 3 innings is not a starter in the traditional sense.  It's more like a bull pen position.

Pena wasn’t the opener. He pitched the bulk of those games for three months. 

[Hubs]

9 minutes ago, Hubs said:

They have depth at AAA, and just so we’re clear, Ohtani is my 5th starter and Barria my 6th. Barria gets maybe 12-15 starts and Ohtani gets 20-22. 

Heaney, Canning, Bundy and Bauer are getting 30 or More. 

if Ohtani gets hurt, they go to a five man rotation. Barria gets more starts.

If someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Barria gets fully moved into the rotation and Sandoval steps in for Barria.

if a second someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Jake Faria or Felix Pena or Jose Suarez steps in for the 6th man. Detmers may be ready by August anyway and he’d be the guy they call on them anyway.

Chris Rodriguez also could step in.

Also Rivera who they drafted in the rule V has been a starter. He may start a game this season but I bet he’s in the pen. 

 

[ukyah]

while i prefer if the angels get two front of the rotation starters. i really don't think that's their aim, and i don't think they intend to do that.

having said that, i do like what perry seems to be doing, and i'm interested to see the final result. i do believe he got his first cockblock as a gm by the mets and cohen with the mccann signing. i think he really wanted him, and they just took it to another level.

[stormngt]

5 hours ago, Hubs said:

One thing to note, they won’t be likely using a 6-man rotation if Ohtani is not a part of It. 
 

So Those of you who Want two starters know that means a rotation to open the year of your two guys, Heaney, Bundy and Canning. 

Sign two guys and everyone’s healthy and Ohtani isn’t in the rotation.

I am confused.  You say Ohtani is part of a 6 man rotation then say if we sign two (two the three already) and Ohtani would not be in the rotation.  Am I misreading something. 

[T.G.]

Reading these threads lately...

 

 

[stormngt]

4 hours ago, Hubs said:

Yeah you should look at the numbers.

Pena in 2019 was our best starter (even though they used the opener for him)

Barria isn’t a bullpen guy and without options I’m concerned about that.

Sandoval is a better fit for the 6 spot bc he can be sent down and brought up when they skip his spot. 

Barria will be in the rotation or he will be traded.

"Pena was our best starter"

That didn't make sense to me.  Everytime I remember him pitching he did well for an inning or two then came the third or fourth inning he got shelled.

I looked up his stats on Baseball Reference:

In 2019 Pena started 7 games (it seemed like more), was 0-2 had a 5.34 ERA and averaged just 4 innings a game.

Was our starting pitching really that bad in 2019?

[Revad]

3 hours ago, Hubs said:

Exactly!!!

I think Barria and Sandoval are fine guys for the last spot in the rotation. Even if Ohtani is a full time hitter, which essentially moves them to a regular five man rotation. 

I’d rather have a competent defensive outfield and a catcher who can hit.

They need an Ace.

 

Barria’s, Sandoval’s and Suarez’s preseason will be interesting, but there will be two holes in the rotation in 2022 so I’d like to see them all stay.  On the other hand, normally I’d be against trading pitching for pitching but I would for an ace.

[Hubs]

38 minutes ago, stormngt said:

I am confused.  You say Ohtani is part of a 6 man rotation then say if we sign two (two the three already) and Ohtani would not be in the rotation.  Am I misreading something. 

No starter who isn’t under club control or isn’t getting paid big bucks on a multi year deal will want to start once a week and they won’t sign with the Angels if they know they’re going to be in a straight six man rotation . Most weeks they’ll just start once. Some weeks twice. 

if they signed two guys to go along with Canning Bundy and Heaney, then there wouldn’t be room for Ohtani as a starter. They’d just go to a five man rotation. 

[angelsnationtalk]

We need 2 starters and preferably guys who fill the #1 and #2 slots in the rotation. Bauer and one of Snell/Marquez/Gray should do. 

I know I'll get heat for saying this, but the Angels had the 2nd worst ERA for starters in 2020. Yes, Ohtani and Teheran offset it a little, but do we really think Heaney is an Opening Day starter type guy? Do we really think Bundy is an Ace? Come one. Sure, Bundy COULD fit the #2 slot, but if our rotation started with him in the #3 slot then the rotation becomes really deep. 

Bauer, Snell, Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Ohtani. That's a deep rotation. 

And as someone sick a tired of the Angels passing on good pitching, It's honestly a "this or bust" feeling about our pitching. Not settling for anything less this year.

 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

They have depth at AAA, and just so we’re clear, Ohtani is my 5th starter and Barria my 6th. Barria gets maybe 12-15 starts and Ohtani gets 20-22. 

Heaney, Canning, Bundy and Bauer are getting 30 or More. 

if Ohtani gets hurt, they go to a five man rotation. Barria gets more starts.

If someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Barria gets fully moved into the rotation and Sandoval steps in for Barria.

if a second someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Jake Faria or Felix Pena or Jose Suarez steps in for the 6th man. Detmers may be ready by August anyway and he’d be the guy they call on them anyway.

Chris Rodriguez also could step in.

I think Pena is gonna be strictly used out of the bullpen, but perhaps I am wrong. The Angels haven't given any public indication on that, so we'll see.

I guess you are more confident in Faria and Suarez as depth options than I am. Rodriguez has the stuff, no doubt, but I don't know if he's major league ready yet. With a player who has the talent that he does, you don't want to have to rush him.

[Duren, Duren]

You can never have enough good pitching. Injuries will occur. Slumps are likely. But also possible better than expected surprises are possible. 

Ohtani as a starter is a luxury. A bonus if he is healthy and effective. But only a partial rotation guy. A quality veteran like Bauer adds depth and consistency. Bundy, Heaney and Canning should collectively be dependable enough to last the season in regular rotation. No elite ace, but good enough to keep games competitive. A solid number one or two addition would really be an upgrade. The bottom rotation will be whoever is hottest and a good matchup game by game.

[mmc]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

They have depth at AAA, and just so we’re clear, Ohtani is my 5th starter and Barria my 6th. Barria gets maybe 12-15 starts and Ohtani gets 20-22. 

Heaney, Canning, Bundy and Bauer are getting 30 or More. 

if Ohtani gets hurt, they go to a five man rotation. Barria gets more starts.

If someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Barria gets fully moved into the rotation and Sandoval steps in for Barria.

if a second someone other than Ohtani gets hurt, Jake Faria or Felix Pena or Jose Suarez steps in for the 6th man. Detmers may be ready by August anyway and he’d be the guy they call on them anyway.

Chris Rodriguez also could step in.

If this honestly doesn't make you uncomfortable then I don't know what to say...

[Pancake Bear]

People need to be realistic with their expectations. Can't just acquire two top starters in a vacuum. It effects a lot of other things. Lot of us have been ignoring that.

Budget (over multiple seasons, not just this one), overall roster considerations and minor league depth - all of that has to be considered. Going "win now, screw everything else" is a bit like dropping your bankroll on black and getting mad when you lose. 

So whether we need one starter or two... 'need' is a relative term. Virtually every team would love to add two top starters. You might point to our overall pitching last year and note it was particularly bad.

Actually, of the 270 ip by Angels starters last season, Bundy and Heaney both ranked in the top 25 among MLB starters per fWAR. Canning and Barria both performed solidly also. That accounted for 210/270 ip. Problem was, Sandoval and especially Teheran, covered 50 more between them at a very poor level. Replace Teheran and Sandoval with, say Wheeler, or Ryu, or Keuchel, and no one is pointing to the rotation as a liability. 

[Hubs]

Ok so I have this as my Depth chart

1. TBD

2. Bundy

3. Canning

4. Heaney

5. Ohtani

6. Barria

7. Sandoval AAA

8. Naughton AAA

9. Faria AAA

10. Pena BP

11. Suarez AAA

12. Pannone AAA

13. Rivera BP

14. Detmers AA

15. C-Rod AA

Last Season’s Depth Chart

1. Ohtani

2. Heaney

3. Bundy

4. Teheran

5. Andriese

6. Sandoval 

7. Barria

8. Suarez

9. Peters 

[Hubs]

If we get to a point where multiple guys listed from 9-15 are starting for This club we have no shot at the playoffs anyway, so why does it matter. Give me Bauer, Joc Pederson and one more reliever / Swingman

[Pancake Bear]

If we're bringing in two new guys who will start in the rotation, I assume one of Barria, Canning, or even Heaney is getting traded.

[ukyah]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

No starter who isn’t under club control or isn’t getting paid big bucks on a multi year deal will want to start once a week and they won’t sign with the Angels if they know they’re going to be in a straight six man rotation . Most weeks they’ll just start once. Some weeks twice. 

if they signed two guys to go along with Canning Bundy and Heaney, then there wouldn’t be room for Ohtani as a starter. They’d just go to a five man rotation. 

 

i'm really not understanding how you say this so absolutely, on all points actually.

[Hubs]

9 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

If we're bringing in two new guys who will start in the rotation, I assume one of Barria, Canning, or even Heaney is getting traded.

Exactly so it doesn’t exactly help depth. It may improve the rotation but it won’t be deeper. If Barria had options I’d say sure get two new starters and stash him at AAA. 
 

Since he doesn’t, I’d rather get one guy and get a guy who does have options who can be at AAA ready to come up if needed. 

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, ukyah said:

 

i'm really not understanding how you say this so absolutely, on all points actually.

Just my opinion, of course.

If you had a chance to be part of a teams 6 man rotation or you were gonna be at aaa, I suppose you would take the sure rotation spot.

The Angels are not signing two free agent starters unless they move someone.

[ukyah]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

Just my opinion, of course.

If you had a chance to be part of a teams 6 man rotation or you were gonna be at aaa, I suppose you would take the sure rotation spot.

The Angels are not signing two free agent starters unless they move someone.

i said this too a few posts ago. however, i would like them to add two starters.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Hubs said:

No starter who isn’t under club control or isn’t getting paid big bucks on a multi year deal will want to start once a week and they won’t sign with the Angels if they know they’re going to be in a straight six man rotation . Most weeks they’ll just start once. Some weeks twice. 

if they signed two guys to go along with Canning Bundy and Heaney, then there wouldn’t be room for Ohtani as a starter. They’d just go to a five man rotation. 

That makes no sense.  They just bump Canning and Heaney starts.  Maybe add Bundy.  

 

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

That makes no sense.  They just bump Canning and Heaney starts.  Maybe add Bundy.  

 

Right now, if they lined up in a 5.5 man rotation, as they have when Ohtani was healthy and pitching every Sunday,  there are only like 10 times they need a 6th starter. 
 

So sign two guys and demote Heaney or Canning to 10 Starts. Makes no sense. Or go to a straight six, ask Ohtani to Occasionally pitch on 5 days rest instead of 6. And get them all to pitch 27 times or so.

 

When they sign two guys let me know I was wrong. 
 

When they don’t, I’ll be sure to You know I was right.

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Hubs said:

If we get to a point where multiple guys listed from 9-15 are starting for This club we have no shot at the playoffs anyway, so why does it matter. Give me Bauer, Joc Pederson and one more reliever / Swingman

um it matter because if you add another starter then it makes it less likely that you have to go that far down your depth chart.  

you are seriously crazy if you think that the top 5 guys are going to make as many starts as you mapped out earlier.  I think all of two teams in 2019 were able to accomplish what you showed. 

plus, Ohtani pitching once a week wouldn't hardly impact anyone in the rotation, and if it does, you can set it up so you are skipping someone like Canning to keep him fresh.  

Heaney, Ohtani and Canning all have injury histories.  Sandoval was awful as a starter last year.  So was Ohtani.  Most if not all of the guys on your depth chart below that are unknowns.  It's an all too familiar tune.  Last years awful performance by Teheran isn't nearly as impactful if the depth actually performs.  It didn't.  

They may very well only add one starter which isn't unreasonable as you are arguing.  But there is significant risk is doing so.