OC Register: Former Angels Gold Glover Torii Hunter among those to debut on Hall of Fame ballot

[Brandon]

Yeah, ever since Baines was voted in I don't take it seriously anymore or think of it as some distinguished legacy award.

Plus, Hunter should get in just based off his fake blacks comment.

[Duren, Duren]

The Baines inclusion is a reminder of how lobbying and favoritism can sway voters. Also playing in major markets and being media friendly.  In this day and age this happens less because of universal access to online, video and advanced metric resources. But it still happens. 

In fact it happened far more in the past. When you walk through Cooperstown and read the plaques, you wonder about a fair number of inclusions. Even from the dead ball era. "Tinker to Evers to Chance" was a popular poem that probably helped enshrine these ancient Cub infielders. 

I hate the inclusion standards being diluted but sometimes there are genuine factors that go beyond statistics. Reputation amongst peers for instance, and clutch performance under pressure. Not everything can be quantified, so there will always be legitimate arguments 

One of the most intriguing disputes was over Roger Maris, who got typecast as a one year wonder despite a very good all around career, including two MVP seasons and multiple championships. And a great reputation amongst his peers. Press hostility also had a negative effect on his reputation. 

If it took Larry Walker and Tim Raines so long to finally get in then it make a you think that Hunter probably will disappear from the ballot in a year or two. Very good, steady player, but tough standards to meet.

 

[Hubs]

He may not have the WAR or the counting stats, but who was the best center fielder of the 00’s? 
 

Hunter was better than Johnny Damon. Edmonds trailed off after five good years. He was better than Erstad and Wells and Finley. 

[Hubs]

Carlos Beltran, Ichiro, Bonds and Trout are the only OF with more WAR than Torii since 2000.

[Docwaukee]

32 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Carlos Beltran, Ichiro, Bonds and Trout are the only OF with more WAR than Torii since 2000.

depends on which WAR you use.  

Berkman, Matt Holliday, McCutchen, Andruw Jones, Curtis Granderson, Abreu, Edmonds, Braun all ahead of Hunter since 2000 on fangraphs.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

14 hours ago, T.G. said:

Growing up and for many years after, Roberto Clemente was my favorite player. Bobby Grich was my all time favorite Angel...

Until Torii Hunter came along and became both for me.

Clemente is in the HOF. Bobby Grich should be. Torii isn’t going in, nor should he.  That doesn’t take away from my appreciation for him as a terrific baseball player, who always made time for the fans.

This is a perfect way to put it.

Lacks the offensive numbers to get in, but was absolutely one of the better players of his generation.

And baseball highlights aside, he was great for baseball. Really good to the fans. Met him a few times, and was exactly as you would expect him. Was really, really bummed when we let him leave.

 

 

[Dtwncbad]

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=Awr9FqrnKrVfMkAATgKInIlQ;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawNpbWcEb2lkAzQ3MDY1MDE0NjYzNTViZGU2MmYwMjM3MWM2YjE3ZmJjBGdwb3MDNzIEaXQDYmluZw--?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DOne%2Bfat%2Bcheerleader%26n%3D60%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-hrmob%26fr2%3Dp%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Asb-top%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D72&w=240&h=184&imgurl=thumbs.gfycat.com%2FBlackCautiousDouglasfirbarkbeetle-max-1mb.gif&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fgfycat.com%2Fgifs%2Ftag%2Fcheerleader&size=865.0KB&p=One+fat+cheerleader&oid=4706501466355bde62f02371c6b17fbc&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Asb-top&fr=yfp-hrmob&tt=Cheerleader+GIFs+|+Find%2C+Make+%26amp%3B&b=61&ni=52&no=72&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=6HSGxwVIg9GU&sigb=htHrPIE2KNZW&sigi=SsPysIHfyVT7&sigt=53NAEYTj4Euy&.crumb=KRhs6g9d0KN&fr=yfp-hrmob&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Asb-top

Harold Baines in the HOF.  Nothing to see here.
 

[jsnpritchett]

5 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=Awr9FqrnKrVfMkAATgKInIlQ;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawNpbWcEb2lkAzQ3MDY1MDE0NjYzNTViZGU2MmYwMjM3MWM2YjE3ZmJjBGdwb3MDNzIEaXQDYmluZw--?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DOne%2Bfat%2Bcheerleader%26n%3D60%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-hrmob%26fr2%3Dp%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Asb-top%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D72&w=240&h=184&imgurl=thumbs.gfycat.com%2FBlackCautiousDouglasfirbarkbeetle-max-1mb.gif&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fgfycat.com%2Fgifs%2Ftag%2Fcheerleader&size=865.0KB&p=One+fat+cheerleader&oid=4706501466355bde62f02371c6b17fbc&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Asb-top&fr=yfp-hrmob&tt=Cheerleader+GIFs+|+Find%2C+Make+%26amp%3B&b=61&ni=52&no=72&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=6HSGxwVIg9GU&sigb=htHrPIE2KNZW&sigi=SsPysIHfyVT7&sigt=53NAEYTj4Euy&.crumb=KRhs6g9d0KN&fr=yfp-hrmob&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Asb-top

Harold Baines in the HOF.  Nothing to see here.
 

[eaterfan]

Is there a serious argument one can make that Torii Hunter should be in the HOF when Andruw Jones should not be? 

[GrittyVeterans]

Just now, eaterfan said:

Is there a serious argument one can make that Torii Hunter should be in the HOF when Andruw Jones should not be? 

Nope. But there are worse players than both of them in the HOF so who knows 

[Pancake Bear]

2 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Is there a serious argument one can make that Torii Hunter should be in the HOF when Andruw Jones should not be? 

Same with Edmonds. Both were better defensively, and Edmonds was a better hitter. Hunter hung around longer and may have been better liked, though. 

[ScottT]

On 11/16/2020 at 7:23 PM, Angelsjunky said:

Yeah, I know. But...people are dumb.

In addition to Edmonds, I'd instantly vote in Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Kenny Lofton, and Scott Rolen. While we're at it, Dick Allen, Graig Nettles, and Dwight Evans. 

And yes, I'd also put in these outcast guys: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, Manny Ramirez, Rafael Palmeiro, Andruw Jones, Gary Sheffield, Sammy Sosa, Curt Schilling, and Shoeless Joe.

Some borderline, but with legit cases: Willie Randolph, Keith Hernandez, Lance Berkman, Kevin Brown, Buddy Bell, Sal Bando, Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Todd Helton, Jack Clark, Reggie Smith, Bobby Abreu, and plenty of others. Not because I think they deserve it (although some may), but because they were better players than a lot of guys voted in and deserve a second look.

 

I dunno. Graig's parents need to be punished 

[ScottT]

On 11/16/2020 at 9:01 PM, tdawg87 said:

Mike Cameron had a higher career WAR than Torii Hunter. 

Baseball is so fucking weird sometimes.

Not surprising

[happybat4]

5 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

Same with Edmonds. Both were better defensively, and Edmonds was a better hitter. Hunter hung around longer and may have been better liked, though. 

What about Lofton?

[happybat4]

https://baseball-dugout.com/2020/11/17/white-sox-assessing-mark-buehrles-hall-of-fame-resume/amp/

[eaterfan]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:26 PM, Duren, Duren said:

The Baines inclusion is a reminder of how lobbying and favoritism can sway voters. Also playing in major markets and being media friendly.  In this day and age this happens less because of universal access to online, video and advanced metric resources. But it still happens. 

In fact it happened far more in the past. When you walk through Cooperstown and read the plaques, you wonder about a fair number of inclusions. Even from the dead ball era. "Tinker to Evers to Chance" was a popular poem that probably helped enshrine these ancient Cub infielders. 

I hate the inclusion standards being diluted but sometimes there are genuine factors that go beyond statistics. Reputation amongst peers for instance, and clutch performance under pressure. Not everything can be quantified, so there will always be legitimate arguments 

One of the most intriguing disputes was over Roger Maris, who got typecast as a one year wonder despite a very good all around career, including two MVP seasons and multiple championships. And a great reputation amongst his peers. Press hostility also had a negative effect on his reputation. 

If it took Larry Walker and Tim Raines so long to finally get in then it make a you think that Hunter probably will disappear from the ballot in a year or two. Very good, steady player, but tough standards to meet.

 

But Harold Baines was voted in by the Veteran's Committee and the the writers. 

I know he's in the Hall of Fame, but I don't really think the point of this discussion is whether or not Torii Hunter will get in via the Veteran's Committee. I think we're mainly talking about whether or not Hunter will and should get into the HoF via normal means. Pointing out guys who lowered the standard enough that Hunter could get into the Hall that way doesn't seem really relevant. Any pretty good player could get in that way and there's not really much to add to it because it's subject to the whims of a relatively small group of voters who haven't really had much of a consistent criteria. 

Yeah, Baines got in, but there have been at least 3 guys who played more recently in Lofton, Edmonds, and Jones who were all better and didn't. Lofton and Edmonds fell off the ballot after one year.