The Official 2020-2021 Hot Stove Offseason Thread

[Second Base]

It's been pretty sad watching the Angels choices dwindle for the third consecutive winter. You enter in with such high hopes, "We"ll get Trevor Bauer and Sonny Gray and it's going to be awesome!" Then people start getting creative and looking for value. But then every other if value comes off the board early. So then posters think it's time to dream big and trade or prospects for Blake Snell and Yu Darvish, only to watch the Padres get there first and not have to give up any of their top prospects outside of Patino. Then the posters think maybe we can import our pitching, only to watch that plan fail too. 

So in a sense, it is sad and frustrating, but on a positive note, there really are a few solid options left, like Bauer, Odorizzi, Tanaka, Richards, Musgrove, Sonny Gray and Castillo. 

The only problem is, the later in the off-season it gets, the more desperate the team will get to have anything to put out on the mound. So they're likely to pay through the nose in any deal, either in money, years or prospects.  

Maybe there's still a chance they land Bauer and trade for Castillo. But I think a middle ground is still Odorizzi and Musgrove. Two mid rotation starters that won't require ace money or hopefully any elite prospects.

[angelsnationtalk]

3 minutes ago, Second Base said:

It's been pretty sad watching the Angels choices dwindle for the third consecutive winter. You enter in with such high hopes, "We"ll get Trevor Bauer and Sonny Gray and it's going to be awesome!" Then people start getting creative and looking for value. But then every other if value comes off the board early. So then posters think it's time to dream big and trade or prospects for Blake Snell and Yu Darvish, only to watch the Padres get there first and not have to give up any of their top prospects outside of Patino. Then the posters think maybe we can import our pitching, only to watch that plan fail too. 

So in a sense, it is sad and frustrating, but on a positive note, there really are a few solid options left, like Bauer, Odorizzi, Tanaka, Richards, Musgrove, Sonny Gray and Castillo. 

The only problem is, the later in the off-season it gets, the more desperate the team will get to have anything to put out on the mound. So they're likely to pay through the nose in any deal, either in money, years or prospects.  

Maybe there's still a chance they land Bauer and trade for Castillo. But I think a middle ground is still Odorizzi and Musgrove. Two mid rotation starters that won't require ace money or hopefully any elite prospects.

Yup.

Although i'd downplay it a little and say the remaining solid options are Bauer, Gray, Marquez and Castillo. 

Maybe the Angels get creative in their own weird and sometimes annoying way and trade for a guy that isn't in all the rumors. 

To me, Odorizzi, Tanaka and especially Musgrove don't make me get excited at all. I'm just tired of "middle rotation" type guys. It hasn't worked. 

I still want Bauer and Castillo. But yes, I know Castillo would be extremely pricey with prospects. 

 

[tdawg87]

I mean tbf nobody got Sugano. I'm guessing no one was willing to meet his demands which says a lot. 

But I've said before that I believe we won't be happy with this offseason's pitching acquisitions because they'll likely be guys we weren't expecting or considering. Like Quintana.

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

I mean tbf nobody got Sugano. I'm guessing no one was willing to meet his demands which says a lot. 

But I've said before that I believe we won't be happy with this offseason's pitching acquisitions because they'll likely be guys we weren't expecting or considering. Like Quintana.

Goodluck to him ever getting what he was offered this year again. He'll then be 32 years old and betting on himself to do excellent in Japan 2021.

I have this gut feeling the Angels will either underwhelm by doing exactly that OR buy over spending of Bauer because Arte didn't want to whiff a 4th year in a row for a #1 guy. 

I'd be completely shell shocked if we go into the 2021 season extremely excited about our rotation and it being talked about as one of the best.... 

 

 

[Second Base]

48 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I mean tbf nobody got Sugano. I'm guessing no one was willing to meet his demands which says a lot. 

But I've said before that I believe we won't be happy with this offseason's pitching acquisitions because they'll likely be guys we weren't expecting or considering. Like Quintana.

I'd be fine with starters of the mid rotation ilk, as long as there is some potential upside or higher floor to the signing. Quintana is going to be 32 and it'll be five years since he posted an ERA south of 4.00. From a performance standpoint, I'd put him in the same category as Andrew Heaney, who is not a bad pitcher, just like Quintana isn't. 

The issue is, the Angels don't need another Andrew Heaney. He's a #4/5 starter, as is Canning, Barria and Sandoval. In fact, I'd almost prefer those three to Heaney because at least they're young and still have some potential to be something more. 

A move like this would essentially be a retread of everything Eppler already did with Harvey, Cahill, and Teheran, which are all components of an annual ritual of failed attempts to acquire the starting pitching they needed. 

It isn't necessarily that Odorizzi and Musgrove are the answer, it's just that Quintana isn't the answer. We know that. 

 

[Docwaukee]

I'd be happy with Quintana at less than 10m for the year.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

30 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I'd be fine with starters of the mid rotation ilk, as long as there is some potential upside or higher floor to the signing. Quintana is going to be 32 and it'll be five years since he posted an ERA south of 4.00. From a performance standpoint, I'd put him in the same category as Andrew Heaney, who is not a bad pitcher, just like Quintana isn't. 

The issue is, the Angels don't need another Andrew Heaney. He's a #4/5 starter, as is Canning, Barria and Sandoval. In fact, I'd almost prefer those three to Heaney because at least they're young and still have some potential to be something more. 

A move like this would essentially be a retread of everything Eppler already did with Harvey, Cahill, and Teheran, which are all components of an annual ritual of failed attempts to acquire the starting pitching they needed. 

It isn't necessarily that Odorizzi and Musgrove are the answer, it's just that Quintana isn't the answer. We know that. 

 

I understand the skepticism towards Quintana but I think you guys are selling him short. The only year he wasn't any good was 2018 when he threw 174 innings for a 4.03 era. He is obviously not ideal but he fills a need while still allowing for other moves. Obviously the team should just go out and sign Bauer and Arte should man up and give Minasian some extra cash to grab a few more decent players but I'm not sure how realistic that is. To me it's preferable to making a bad deal for guys higher up on our priority list.

[wopphil]

I’d be happy to get Quintana. But we need Bauer or Gray too. 

[Dtwncbad]

84 pages of “need pitching” and we still have no idea what will happen.

[angelsnationtalk]

Angels gunna hop on this transaction train tomorrow or what?

[Angel Oracle]

4 hours ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Yup.

Although i'd downplay it a little and say the remaining solid options are Bauer, Gray, Marquez and Castillo. 

Maybe the Angels get creative in their own weird and sometimes annoying way and trade for a guy that isn't in all the rumors. 

To me, Odorizzi, Tanaka and especially Musgrove don't make me get excited at all. I'm just tired of "middle rotation" type guys. It hasn't worked. 

I still want Bauer and Castillo. But yes, I know Castillo would be extremely pricey with prospects. 

 

I’m just tired of this same game off-season after off-season.

Was there a disconnect with pitching and the FO over the past eight off-seasons?

[Erstad Grit]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

I’m just tired of this same game off-season after off-season.

Was there a disconnect with pitching and the FO over the past eight off-seasons?

With ZERO insider knowledge I have a suspicion. 

In the past we have targeted one SP as THE goal and have each year underestimated their value.

2020 Cole

2019  Corbin

2018 Darvish

It's as if when that plan doesn't work we're screwed

I actually think it's happening again with Bauer except we might over pay and get him. 

[Inside Pitch]

I've seen people here prop this guy up as being legit.... This take right here pretty much sums up this fraud. Dude is an Astros fan pushing a narrative everyone knows is false.  Stop buying into this POS and his bullshit, he's spouted off so many things about how MLB teams operate that are factually incorrect its not funny, but now he's just flat out making shit up.

[Second Base]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I've seen people here prop this guy up as being legit.... This take right here pretty much sums up this fraud. Dude is an Astros fan pushing a narrative everyone knows is false.  Stop buying into this POS and his bullshit, he's spouted off so many things about how MLB teams operate that are factually incorrect its not funny, but now he's just flat out making shit up.

I think he's telling some half-truths and selling it as fact. You see it a lot in politics, it's a manipulation tactic.

Yes, pitchers do doctor the ball, and it has been happening for years. The difference here is that it was an unspoken rule, don't abuse this and it was policed by opposing pitchers throwing in high and tight to that pitcher in the NL or to the DH in the AL. What bubba was doing was specifically helping pitchers use a lot more than is necessary to create movement and break on their ball. 

It's no coincidence that the Astros were getting career years from every pitcher as soon as they arrived in Houston. Spin rates would nearly double and pitchers would suddenly find another 1.5 mph on their fastball without any significant changes to their delivery, at a time in their career where velocity should begin to drop. 

It also isn't coincidence that Verlander and Cole reached out to him. 

Bubba was abusing this method, directly aiding opposing teams. 

Again, a half truth. He was fired for a really good reason.

 

[Angel Oracle]

15 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I'd be happy with Quintana at less than 10m for the year.  

Only if he’s the 2nd starting pitcher signed.

[T.G.]

16 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I think he's telling some half-truths and selling it as fact. You see it a lot on AW.

Fify

[Cosmo_Kramer]

Did anyone actually read the article?

[Inside Pitch]

26 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I think he's telling some half-truths and selling it as fact. You see it a lot in politics, it's a manipulation tactic.

Yes, pitchers do doctor the ball, and it has been happening for years. The difference here is that it was an unspoken rule, don't abuse this and it was policed by opposing pitchers throwing in high and tight to that pitcher in the NL or to the DH in the AL. What bubba was doing was specifically helping pitchers use a lot more than is necessary to create movement and break on their ball. 

It's no coincidence that the Astros were getting career years from every pitcher as soon as they arrived in Houston. Spin rates would nearly double and pitchers would suddenly find another 1.5 mph on their fastball without any significant changes to their delivery, at a time in their career where velocity should begin to drop. 

It also isn't coincidence that Verlander and Cole reached out to him. 

Bubba was abusing this method, directly aiding opposing teams. 

Again, a half truth. He was fired for a really good reason.

 

I was referring to the comment about the Angels prescribing opiates to their players. 

His intent with that tweet was to basically say the Bubba story is a non-story and the real story is the Angels are guilty of something nefarious.  

[Second Base]

Just now, Inside Pitch said:

I was referring to the comment about the Angels prescribing opiates to their players.  His itent was to basically say the Bubba story is a non-story and the real story is the Angels are guilty of something nefarious.

Oh ok. Thanks. You're absolutely be right.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

Oh ok. Thanks. You're absolutely be right.

LOL, FWIW... I agree with your take on Bubba-gate

[Tank]

22 hours ago, Angels_Make_Me_Drink said:

Waiting on Bauer is exhausting. 

i'm still working on it . . . 

[Inside Pitch]

16 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I understand the skepticism towards Quintana but I think you guys are selling him short. The only year he wasn't any good was 2018 when he threw 174 innings for a 4.03 era. He is obviously not ideal but he fills a need while still allowing for other moves. Obviously the team should just go out and sign Bauer and Arte should man up and give Minasian some extra cash to grab a few more decent players but I'm not sure how realistic that is. To me it's preferable to making a bad deal for guys higher up on our priority list.

They are ... He's outperformed Tanaka and Odorizzi 2017-2020.  But people tend to focus on ERA, and names they recognize.  Dude tends to stay healthy too.

[Docwaukee]

22 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

They are ... He's outperformed Tanaka and Odorizzi 2017-2020.  But people tend to focus on ERA, and names they recognize.  Dude tends to stay healthy too.

the last time we had a player pitch 180 innings with an ERA around 4.00 was five years ago.  Quintana is exactly what this rotation needs.  Solid innings.  

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

i'm still working on it . . . 

Aren’t you tiring of Del Taco food?

[Erstad Grit]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

the last time we had a player pitch 180 innings with an ERA around 4.00 was five years ago.  Quintana is exactly what this rotation needs.  Solid innings.  

2018 Heaney