The Official 2020-2021 Hot Stove Offseason Thread

[Redondo]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It would have to be a contender or else he isn’t going to go.  So which team is a contender that might want a guy like Upton, maybe Oakland? 

Who would we replace him with? 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Redondo said:

Who would we replace him with? 

Fletcher or Rengifo until someone like Marsh is ready.

[angelsnationtalk]

3 hours ago, Second Base said:

I still think Angels fans are having unwarranted visions of grandeur regarding their pitching acquisitions.

Blake Snell - Rays payroll isn't in trouble as of right now, and they nearly won the World Series. There's little incentive to cause then to sell right now unless they receive a package that's clearly an overpay that helps them right now AND in the future. You don't want to pay that.

Yu Darvish - The Cubs have not entered a rebuild and have publicly stated their intention to give it another go in 2021 before entering any sort of rebuild. They just got a new man in charge, and I doubt they want to reward his years of service by telling him to sell their talent for scraps. Darvish is available, but only if overpaid. Otherwise, wait until the trade deadline or next off-season.

Sony Gray - The Reds needed to shed payroll. They shed nearly 7 million in the Iglesias deal and have Bauer likely coming off the books. They don't need to trade Gray. They could, and maybe even should, but they've got some flexibility right now. 

Same with Marquez in Colorado.

I'm not saying the Angels won't get their ace via trade. I'm saying that you might not like the price and regret making that deal. 

And as for Bauer, he's been more of a 4.00 ERA pitcher throughout his career than an ace. But he's going to require ace money. I'm not saying the Angels won't sign Bauer, I'm saying that if they do, his salary may not match the results.

Max Scherzer was a 4 ERA guy for his first 5 career years. 
Patrick Corbin was 4 ERA guy for first 5 years
Justin Verlander wasn't an Ace in the beginning either. 

I've always thought pitchers take much longer to reach their potential. Maybe Bauer is the same. 

[Vlad27Trout27]

Along the lines of what Scotty said, you also have to consider the outlook of the team, not just for this year, but also thw upcoming season.

As of now, we have uncertainty in the putfield. Right field and left fields are both question marks. We have Adell as our rightfield, and than Upton who's a question mark after two awful years. With these two question marks, it potenitally eliminates any trade involving Adell or Marsh, as we may need both of them. 

Than there's also uncertainty at ss (even tho we made a trade) and 1st. Iglesias and Walsh/Pujols are slotted to play SS and 1st, Iglesias in his career has been an average hitter, while we don't know if Walsh will be able to repeat. Plus, since Marsh has been playing 1st, it also make it more unlikely he gets traded. But, it also depends on his ability to play 1st. 

Now the pitching side, i think we do need another starter. Perferrably a 2, but a 3 would help. 

Bundy and Heaney are free agents after the season. It'll be interesting to see if Bundy can replicate his 2020 season, but there still concerns to consider, the same can be said about Heaney. Outside of those two, we have Othani and Barria, where Othani is a question mark. Now the propects, Detmers and Rodriguez are the closet and most readied.

Detmers will most likely stick in the rotation and has the potential to be 2/3.

Rodriguez is a question mark, but he also has the highest upside of anyother pitcher in the system and also one of the closet to the Majors. 

So, with the uncertanity in the rotation, it becomes that much differcult for us to consider trading our two top propects. Plus, we also have to consider the free agent market for the next few years. Its weak regarding starters.

Not lets looks at the Pitcher that could be traded?

Snell: I'm a skeptical on trading for him. Simply do to the fact he's only had one 1 year where's he has thrown over 150 Innings in his career. he's only average around 100 inngs, not worth the propsect haul that TB is asking for.   

Grey: What Scotty said.

Darvish: ^ 

final thoughts, i would say the wise choice would be to wait until the trade deadline and than make a move. There's a lot that can happen; we could have another top propects to trade, Bundy repeats, Othani is healthy.......

Until than i think the wise and best choice would be to sign a free agents thats a solid 3, and than go after a guy like Richards, who could be a hight risk, high potential guy. 

[Redondo]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Fletcher or Rengifo until someone like Marsh is ready.

Thanks for the input

[Angel Oracle]

I’d wait and see if Upton rebounds this season.   If he does, it’s much easier to trade half of $28 million than half of $51 million.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Vlad27Trout27]

3 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Max Scherzer was a 4 ERA guy for his first 5 career years. 
Patrick Corbin was 4 ERA guy for first 5 years
Justin Verlander wasn't an Ace in the beginning either. 

I've always thought pitchers take much longer to reach their potential. Maybe Bauer is the same. 

Scherzer was a 4 war pitcher by his 3rd years and than broke out.

Corbin was showing flashes of a 2/3 in his 2nd year, than he TJ, and evetually he returned to form. 

Verlander was a 3 war player by in his 3 year, and he broke out.

While for Bauer it took his 5th year for him to put up 2.6 war.

Plus Bauer seem like a headache.

The only person i would say that comes close Baur, is Corbin. Who only geting 21 miil a year which is what bauer is worth, not 25+  

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Warfarin said:

An interesting thought too, but Rosenthal suggested in his piece this morning that the Angels might be looking to trade a prospect, along with Upton, to help offload his contract.  They'd still have to eat a sizable chunk of it I imagine, but perhaps they can find someone who will take on ~10mil per year of his remaining salary if they attach a prospect of some kind.

Notably, he has a full-trade clause, so that deeply confounds things, but it's an interesting suggestion nevertheless.

I honestly don't think having a no trade clause is a big deal. There are ways you can work around those. Getting someone to take Upton and his salary (even if you are attaching a prospect) is the bigger issue.

[BTH]

56 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It would have to be a contender or else he isn’t going to go.  So which team is a contender that might want a guy like Upton, maybe Oakland? 

If GM's are smart (and most of them should be since they are Ivy League guys) they know that you can easily work around a no trade clause.

The Angels can easily work around Upton's no trade clause.

[Stradling]

Just now, Trendon said:

If GM's are smart (and most of them should be since they are Ivy League guys) they know that you can easily work around a no trade clause.

The Angels can easily work around Upton's no trade clause.

Saying they can work around the no trade clause is ignoring what Upton said when he signed here.  He said he was looking forward to being in one place for 5 years since before he was here he was on a few different teams in a few years.  He wanted stability for him and his family.  I don’t expect him to waive the no trade clause unless it is a GREAT situation for him.

[BTH]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Saying they can work around the no trade clause is ignoring what Upton said when he signed here.  He said he was looking forward to being in one place for 5 years since before he was here he was on a few different teams in a few years.  He wanted stability for him and his family.  I don’t expect him to waive the no trade clause unless it is a GREAT situation for him.

The Angels don't need him to waive his no trade clause.

Here's why: Say the Angels wanted to trade Justin Upton and Prospect X to Team Y for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations. The Angels could agree with Team Y that we will trade you Prospect X if you take on Justin Upton in exchange for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations.

If Upton declines to waive his no-trade clause, you work the agreement with Team Y so that they agree to claim Upton on waivers when you put him on waivers. You then put him on waivers, the team picks him up, and the deal is done.

Now you could say “what if Team Y doesn’t pick Upton up on waivers like they agreed to?” Well, they could work out the deal so that Team Y gets a PTBNL/Cash Considerations and that PTBNL/Cash Considerations is only Prospect X IF team Y claims Upton. Otherwise it’s just cash considerations (or $1).

Players with no-trade clauses can be put on waivers, and this is thus a workaround for any no-trade clause.

[mmc]

6 minutes ago, Trendon said:

The Angels don't need him to waive his no trade clause.

Here's why: Say the Angels wanted to trade Justin Upton and Prospect X to Team Y for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations. The Angels could agree with Team Y that we will trade you Prospect X if you take on Justin Upton in exchange for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations.

If Upton declines to waive his no-trade clause, you work the agreement with Team Y so that they agree to claim Upton on waivers when you put him on waivers. You then put him on waivers, the team picks him up, and the deal is done.

Now you could say “what if Team Y doesn’t pick Upton up on waivers like they agreed to?” Well, they could work out the deal so that Team Y gets a PTBNL/Cash Considerations and that PTBNL/Cash Considerations is only Prospect X IF team Y claims Upton. Otherwise it’s just cash considerations (or $1).

Players with no-trade clauses can be put on waivers, and this is thus a workaround for any no-trade clause.

This would almost certainly cause an issue with the PA.

[Docwaukee]

7 minutes ago, Trendon said:

If GM's are smart (and most of them should be since they are Ivy League guys) they know that you can easily work around a no trade clause.

The Angels can easily work around Upton's no trade clause.

I think it would be tremendously difficult to work around Upton's NTC.  The whole point of having it is that it's ultimately Justin's choice and not that of some ivy league GM.  

[angelsnationtalk]

6 minutes ago, Trendon said:

The Angels don't need him to waive his no trade clause.

Here's why: Say the Angels wanted to trade Justin Upton and Prospect X to Team Y for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations. The Angels could agree with Team Y that we will trade you Prospect X if you take on Justin Upton in exchange for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations.

If Upton declines to waive his no-trade clause, you work the agreement with Team Y so that they agree to claim Upton on waivers when you put him on waivers. You then put him on waivers, the team picks him up, and the deal is done.

Now you could say “what if Team Y doesn’t pick Upton up on waivers like they agreed to?” Well, they could work out the deal so that Team Y gets a PTBNL/Cash Considerations and that PTBNL/Cash Considerations is only Prospect X IF team Y claims Upton. Otherwise it’s just cash considerations (or $1).

Players with no-trade clauses can be put on waivers, and this is thus a workaround for any no-trade clause.

How would someone like Bauer view that? Assuming hasn't signed anywhere he might look at that and thinks thats being cheap as a team.

[Lou]

7 minutes ago, Trendon said:

The Angels don't need him to waive his no trade clause.

Here's why: Say the Angels wanted to trade Justin Upton and Prospect X to Team Y for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations. The Angels could agree with Team Y that we will trade you Prospect X if you take on Justin Upton in exchange for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations.

If Upton declines to waive his no-trade clause, you work the agreement with Team Y so that they agree to claim Upton on waivers when you put him on waivers. You then put him on waivers, the team picks him up, and the deal is done.

Now you could say “what if Team Y doesn’t pick Upton up on waivers like they agreed to?” Well, they could work out the deal so that Team Y gets a PTBNL/Cash Considerations and that PTBNL/Cash Considerations is only Prospect X IF team Y claims Upton. Otherwise it’s just cash considerations (or $1).

Players with no-trade clauses can be put on waivers, and this is thus a workaround for any no-trade clause.

Nice post, but you are wrong.

[Docwaukee]

7 minutes ago, Trendon said:

The Angels don't need him to waive his no trade clause.

Here's why: Say the Angels wanted to trade Justin Upton and Prospect X to Team Y for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations. The Angels could agree with Team Y that we will trade you Prospect X if you take on Justin Upton in exchange for a PTBNL/Cash Considerations.

If Upton declines to waive his no-trade clause, you work the agreement with Team Y so that they agree to claim Upton on waivers when you put him on waivers. You then put him on waivers, the team picks him up, and the deal is done.

Now you could say “what if Team Y doesn’t pick Upton up on waivers like they agreed to?” Well, they could work out the deal so that Team Y gets a PTBNL/Cash Considerations and that PTBNL/Cash Considerations is only Prospect X IF team Y claims Upton. Otherwise it’s just cash considerations (or $1).

Players with no-trade clauses can be put on waivers, and this is thus a workaround for any no-trade clause.

MLBPA would never allow that in a million years.  It's a direct and purposeful move to circumvent the contract.  

[Second Base]

1 hour ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Max Scherzer was a 4 ERA guy for his first 5 career years. 
Patrick Corbin was 4 ERA guy for first 5 years
Justin Verlander wasn't an Ace in the beginning either. 

I've always thought pitchers take much longer to reach their potential. Maybe Bauer is the same. 

Usually you bring up good points but this one was way off the mark. Bauer has been in the league 9 years, 7 full as a starter. He is what he is at this point if his career.

[angelsnationtalk]

Just now, Second Base said:

Usually you bring up good points but this one was way off the mark. Bauer has been in the league 9 years, 7 full as a starter. He is what he is at this point if his career.

Thanks on the fist part. My reasoning behind this is that I've always felt like pitchers age much better with finding their stuff. Bauer could be one of those players. 
But I get what you're saying. 

[Inside Pitch]

38 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Saying they can work around the no trade clause is ignoring what Upton said when he signed here.  He said he was looking forward to being in one place for 5 years since before he was here he was on a few different teams in a few years.  He wanted stability for him and his family.  I don’t expect him to waive the no trade clause unless it is a GREAT situation for him.

Upton's youngest daughter was diagnosed with a pretty awful genetic disorder (Emanuel Syndrome), early this year..... it's likely his desire for stability is even more real now than it was when he first signed here.

[Lou]

Didn't Upton nix a trade once before? 

[Inside Pitch]

36 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I think it would be tremendously difficult to work around Upton's NTC.  The whole point of having it is that it's ultimately Justin's choice and not that of some ivy league GM.  

What about a GM that used to clean MLB toilets?   Go Perry!

[Pancake Bear]

3 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Usually you bring up good points but this one was way off the mark. Bauer has been in the league 9 years, 7 full as a starter. He is what he is at this point if his career.

This seems to me to ignore his heavy push into analytics. His spin rate also jumped big time in 2020. Why? Pine tar? Something else? I don't know. It's a question worth asking, though.

Is he a ace? Probably not. Is he a 4 ERA guy going forward? That remains to be seen.

It just feels heavily reductionistic to say he is who he was five years ago when there are good reasons to point to for his improvement in 2018 and 2020. 2019 is a fair question, although I'd note that whatever reason he had an awful end to the year after being traded. That might have impacted him to some degree or there might have been other reasons (he had roughly a 3.80 ERA until he got traded and ended around a 4.5).

[Docwaukee]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

What about a GM that used to clean MLB toilets?   Go Perry!

 

[Lou]

 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, mmc said:

This would almost certainly cause an issue with the PA.

 

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

I think it would be tremendously difficult to work around Upton's NTC.  The whole point of having it is that it's ultimately Justin's choice and not that of some ivy league GM.  

 

1 hour ago, angelsnationtalk said:

How would someone like Bauer view that? Assuming hasn't signed anywhere he might look at that and thinks thats being cheap as a team.

 

1 hour ago, Lou said:

Nice post, but you are wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

MLBPA would never allow that in a million years.  It's a direct and purposeful move to circumvent the contract.  

 

So a lot of people are bringing up the MLBPA not allowing that, but can the MLBPA really do anything? I can see why they'd be upset, but it's not against the rules. Until it's written in the rules, isn't is a loophole that can be exploited?