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Joel Sherman: Angels new GM will need to find 6-8 new pitchers


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I would assume this is either industry expectation from people he's talked to or he just has a hate-on for the Angels. 

My first reaction is: BS. Am I missing something? Is the Angels pitching situation really that far off? 

(Note. I'm not interested in the opinion of the trolls -- I already know and don't care about your opinions. Looking for serious looks at who we have and what we need compared to other playoff teams.)

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No offense to Joel, but I think it's just his own ignorance. If you actually look at the Angels roster, you'd realize they don't need 6-8 pitchers, but I don't think he actually looked at it. He just knows the Angels need is pitching (as everyone knows) and exaggerated the number to make his point or didn't put the effort in to realize that wasn't the case.

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Kind of agree.

Safe to say we need at least one #1-#3, to pair with Heaney and Bundy.

We probably need a durable #3-#5, to offer insurance against the rookies Barria and Canning.

Nabbing am insurance #5 on a cheap one-year or ST invite is prudent. That’s three.

(Ohtani is a unicorn, he’s #6 only because he pitches once a week at most)

After that, I expect at least 2-3 of Robles, Andriese, Barnes, Bedrosian, Milner, Noe to be non-tendered. At least. That’s another three, or six.

If we have to trade any pitchers - Barria, Sandoval, Suarez, Buttrey, and Middleton all could be involved in a trade for one of the first arms mentioned - then that’s at least another one or two.

The staff needs to be revamped, especially if you opt to have a lot of the youth ticketed for AAA to serve as depth. We have a lot to build on - it is better than most give us credit for - but the deck can be shuffled quite a bit this winter. Fresh blood.

Edited by totdprods
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3 minutes ago, Trendon said:

No offense to Joel, but I think it's just his own ignorance. If you actually look at the Angels roster, you'd realize they don't need 6-8 pitchers, but I don't think he actually looked at it. He just knows the Angels need is pitching (as everyone knows) and exaggerated the number to make his point or didn't put the effort in to realize that wasn't the case.

Exactly. The team has needed pitching for years but a lot of that has been due to a lack of depth and some real bad luck. If you look at where the team is at right now depth isn't really an issue we just need some upside at the top of the rotation and to sign someone better than Teheran. I'd like a reliever but I think our pen would've sorted itself out a little better over 162 games. What really hurt the team unexpectedly this season was some really poor defense that we need to address.

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Just quickly looking at it, if the Angels carry 13 pitchers next season, the Angels figure to have 7 playoff team caliber pitchers in Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Bedrosian, Mayers, Pena, and Ramirez. They may not be at the top tier of a playoff team, but they'd be part of the middle/back end of the rotation and bullpen at least. That'd leave them needing 6 new pitchers at max. That number could decrease through internal improvements from guys who have been good before like Barria, Buttrey, Ohtani, and Middleton.

I'd say a fair assessment is they need to add a combination of 3-4 quality pitchers from the rotation and bullpen

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54 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Just quickly looking at it, if the Angels carry 13 pitchers next season, the Angels figure to have 7 playoff team caliber pitchers in Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Bedrosian, Mayers, Pena, and Ramirez. They may not be at the top tier of a playoff team, but they'd be part of the middle/back end of the rotation and bullpen at least. That'd leave them needing 6 new pitchers at max. That number could decrease through internal improvements from guys who have been good before like Barria, Buttrey, Ohtani, and Middleton.

I'd say a fair assessment is they need to add a combination of 3-4 quality pitchers from the rotation and bullpen

"7 playoff team caliber pitchers" is only used cuz that's basically all we have. 

IMO real playoff caliber players are Bundy, Mayers and MAYBE Canning if he figures it out. Everyone else needs to be replaced and refreshed. 

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As much as I disagree with any MLB writer, Sherman is right with this one. 

Getting that one guy or those two guys won't help with anything. They need to have an Ace. This means dump the idea of having 17 solid #4-#5 guys. 

That's what got Eppler in trouble is aside from Bundy, he found himself happy with a bunch of solid #3-#5 guys. Sure, you're deep, but you'll get rocked in the playoffs. ( if you make it).

Look at starters on all World Series teams from recent years....
Dodgers: Kershaw, Buehler
Astros: Verlander, Greinke, Cole
Nationals: Strasburg, Scherzer
Rays: Snell, Glasnow
RedSox: Price, Sale

It takes Aces. 
6-8 pitchers from aces to bullpen really isn't that far of a stretch. 

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We probably added 6-8 new pitchers last year.

Bundy, Teheran, Barnes, Mayers, Andriese - that’s five significant adds already - Milner, Buchter saw plenty of playing time, that’s seven.

Quijada, Keller...didn’t play much, but over a full season could have made a dozen or so appearances.

And I still suspect there’s a chance we see Buttrey, Middleton, Suarez, Sandoval, Barria, or even Canning move in a trade for a pitcher. 

Edited by totdprods
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6-8 is overdoing it, and I think shows a lack of knowledge of the Angels system on Sherman's part, which really isn't his fault. He's not a beat reporter for any team, particularly one on the other side of the country, 3,000 miles away. 

Two starting pitchers, and two more bullpen arms should suffice, especially if the two starting pitchers are #3 or better.

When you have guys like Canning, Barria, Sandoval, Pena, Suarez, Andriese, Detmers, Stallings and Rodriguez, you really don't worry about depth as much as you worry about quality. 

The Angels seem to have plenty of decent arms to put out there on the mound. But not a lot in terms of high quality, front of the rotation starters. 

Bauer and Musgrove, please.

Edited by Second Base
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Being overlooked here is one thing Sherman is pretty dead on about - the Angels might be in their best window right now to win the West. The Astros were shaky and are getting old. The Rangers are likely headed into a deep rebuild. The Mariners have something potential - they could come along quickly - but still likely have a year or two. The Athletics are in prime position but are nearing the part of their cycle where they start dealing away stars.

We know Arte isn’t the most progressive, stat-oriented guy. He likes stars. He like marketing. This year is his last opportunity for perhaps his greatest player acquisition moment - Albert - to have any shot of contributing to a championship team. Upton is here for two more years. Everything they’ve spent on has been with an intent to have won before these guys departed. And while they aren’t the key players anymore, I’m sure it gnaws at Arte that he hasn’t seen players he’s invested so much in to not even have a chance to play on that stage. And that window closes very soon. 

They could go big this winter. They could opt for a plan to go big now and tear down hard in a couple seasons if it doesn’t stick. We’ll see!

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I think 6-8 comes from a quick analysis. He knows they need pitching. He sees three stable starters. One more that's had up and down seasons, so that's two starters to be added at least, and three as insurance for Ohtani, but they'd likely not go with 6 if Ohtani transitions to a relief or full time hitting role. Both Bundy and Heaney are Free agents after next season so adding two guys isn't a bad idea, even if it squeezes out someone.

And then you've got the pen, where you need likely three new guys because Robles had a 10 ERA as your closer, Buttrey was in the 5's, and you figure they need one more solid guy.

In reality, they have 4 starters of a 5 man rotation now in Bundy, Heaney, Canning, and Barria. Ohtani is a good 6th, so you do need one starter to replace Teheran. They would still have Sandoval and Pena and Andriese as rotation depth, along with Detmers and I assume 1-2 guys ticketed for SLC.

Suarez is young, but hasn't shown anything in limited action, and can probably use a full year at AAA in a rotation role to see if he can tune his game for the majors.

For the pen, I'd say they need a new closer, unless they give it to Mayers. I like Mayers, Buttrey, Bedrosian, and Pena as the core four, in the pen, with say a proven closer, and two to three other young guys from either free agency or from their own stash depending on what they do Andriese. N. Ramirez also deserves a pen role. So maybe two guys, a closer and a reliable lefty.

Add 1 or 2 FA Starter - Bauer/Stroman/Richards/Paxton/Tanaka/Ray/Walker/Gausman Or Add 1 FA and 1 Starter via Trade - Jon Gray/Etc.

Add a Closer - Rosenthal, Colome, Hendriks, DoLittle, Jefffres, Britton

Add 2 or 3 FA relievers - Erasmo Ramirez, (including some old familiar names like Yusmiero Petit, Jose Alvarez, Blake Parker).

By eliminating underperformers, the staff as is has a high 3's low 4 ERA, and adding some proven arms will fix the taff.

 

 

 

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6-8 is only accurate with context as @totdprods provided.
Most of that isnt that big a reach, ultimately it still breaks down to someone at the top someone in the middle and fill in the blanks.
The problem i see is that whats out there is going to be hard fit in the budget and therefore unrealistic unless Arte is will to go ham over the cap under the assumption that Albert dropping off balance that problem. 

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Here’s how I would be drawing up the staff as of now:

  1. Bundy
  2. Heaney
  3. FA/Trade
  4. FA/Trade
  5. Canning
  6. Barria/Ohtani
  7. Pena
  8. Sandoval
  9. Mayers
  10. Buttrey
  11. FA/Trade
  12. FA/Trade
  13. FA/Trade

AAA: Suarez, Yan

Added to 40: Naughton, C. Rodriguez, Brady, Soriano

Non-tendered/traded/outrighted: Robles, Bedrosian, Anderson, Peters, Milner, Quijada, Keller, Bard, and Reyes

On the fence about Barnes, Andriese, Noe, and even Middleton. I’d probably keep one or two, but hard to guess without knowing the next GM or who may be on the table in trades. 

If it were me, I’d be a little more ruthless when it comes to non-tenders this year. All of the names in the last two groups total well over $16m in salary, even the minor guys. There’s your money for two or three vet relievers right there. The depth takes a blow, but if your starting pitching investments pay off and they’re durable, you *should* be able to ease the strain of the bullpen depth. I would also start using Sandoval and perhaps even Rodriguez and Yan out of the pen almost immediately given their multi-inning capability Barria a bit too. Add a couple minimum pay waiver claims, guys who have options, to replace guys who don’t (and are starting to get paydays) like Noe ($1m+), Kenyan ($1m), Andriese ($2m) and you have a staff that’s in good shape, comes with fresh blood, more roster versatility, and better flexibility with options. It would represent 6-8 new pitchers fairly easily. 

FWIW, I still think the Angels trade for one legitimate SP, and it costs them at least one or two of Barria, Sandoval, Suarez, Yan, Buttrey, Rodriguez, Soriano, or Middleton, perhaps even Canning. That would really alter what I listed out above.

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1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

Yes. That's definitely what he said. You totally comprehended that one correctly.

Or maybe he was saying the average team adds 4-6 and even a tremendous team, like the Dodgers, added 4 pitchers, to give context to the situation.

How many of them play tennis?

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