Is Mookie Betts the best player in baseball?

[Stradling]

Uh, Ted Williams is looked upon as a very good player.  He is the best hitter in the history of the game.  

[Blarg]

The Red Sox should have moved Williams from right field to first base in his later years. It was probably his stubbornness that refused a position change but it might have extended his on field time. 

[Angelsjunky]

20 hours ago, yk9001 said:

League MVPs don't tell the whole story.

There is a whole postseason every single year, the thing that people actually pay attention to.

Trout thusfar in his career has barely sniffed the postseason. The blame on whose fault that is can easily be parceled out.  It does matter.

Angelswin is no barometer. F*ck, people here make excuses for him because his wife had a baby.  Its insane.

What is your point? Do you honestly disagree that Trout is widely considered the best player in the game?

I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I'd guess that 95% of statnerds consider him the best player, 75% of analysts/sportswriters, and 50% of fans. Those that don't are mostly homers of other teams. 50% might not seem like a lot, but consider that the other 50% is split between many other players.

This may change in the not-too-distant future, and of course inevitably will change. But he has been considered the best player for quite awhile now, for knowledge fans since his rookie year. 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Angelsjunky

[yk9001]

3 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

What is your point? Do you honestly disagree that Trout is widely considered the best player in the game?

I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I'd guess that 95% of statnerds consider him the best player, 75% of analysts/sportswriters, and 50% of fans. Those that don't are mostly homers of other teams. 50% might not seem like a lot, but consider that the other 50% is split between many other players.

This may change in the not-too-distant future, and of course inevitably will change. But he has been considered the best player for quite awhile now, for knowledge fans since his rookie year. 

 

Okay.

[Angels 1961]

He's one of the best but he also has been in lineups that are very strong. What would Trout have done in Red Sox  or Dodger lineup. Trout for years has had Albert hitting behind him.

[Angelsjunky]

2 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

He's one of the best but he also has been in lineups that are very strong. What would Trout have done in Red Sox  or Dodger lineup. Trout for years has had Albert hitting behind him.

I have wondered whether "lineup protection" is real or more a matter of perception. Trout had the best hitter he's ever had hitting behind him in 2020, and had his worst offensive season of his career (career low wRC+ of 164). Obviously there are other factors, not least of which was the shortness of the season; presumably his stats would have equalized over the course of 162 games. But we'd need a full season or two to really get a sense of what the Rendon Effect is, and then he's only one player. I'm guessing some statnerd has researched this, but I'm too lazy to google it.

[Angels 1961]

Not just Rendon but whole lineup. Betts this year had Bellinger, Turner, Muncy, Smith, Seager etc etc. 

[Angelsjunky]

1 hour ago, Angels 1961 said:

Not just Rendon but whole lineup. Betts this year had Bellinger, Turner, Muncy, Smith, Seager etc etc. 

The Dodgers have the best lineup in baseball. The Angels had a pretty good lineup. But the main thing is the guy behind you. If a man is on base and facing Trout with Rendon up next, the pitcher is thinking, "Trout is scary, but so is Rendon - I better not let another man on because Rendon with two on is worse than Trout with one on." 

Anyhow, again, not sure if lineup protection means anything. Trout's RBI and Runs numbers would be higher with a better lineup, but I'm not sure his real stats would be any different. Hard to say.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I like Betts... hes a beast. But seeing the pundits gush over him reminds me of the harper hype a few years back.... anyone who is going to unseat trout has to be the best player for at least 3 years in a row....

[T.G.]

All this Dodger love in the forum makes me puke

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

GTFO No 

[Lou]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2043148/mlb-execs-wade-into-top-player-debate-trout-literally-the-best-player-ever

[Jay]

Trout or Betts? Poll of MLB execs not close

https://www.mlb.com/news/mike-trout-mookie-betts-best-mlb-player-poll

 

[Angelsjunky]

16 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I like Betts... hes a beast. But seeing the pundits gush over him reminds me of the harper hype a few years back.... anyone who is going to unseat trout has to be the best player for at least 3 years in a row....

Pundits have a tendency to gush about the flavor of the month, but I don't think the Harper and Betts hype is similar. Harper was always hyped, from about age 15, and then he had that Ruthian 2015 season (197 wRC+ same as Ruth's career average). But he's been up and down since, and seems to have settled in as a star but not a superstar, at least performance-wise. His numbers over the last three years have been pretty consistent (about .260/.900, 140 wRC+, ~4 WAR per season), even with a slight upward trend, but I think he's established his level. That said, I could see him churning out the occasional monster season.

Betts has consistently been the overall second best player in the game, since 2016. Over the last three years, the gap has narrowed between him and Trout, as my numbers in the first post indicate. Trout still has the edge, but the numbers indicate the gap isn't as great as it once was.

As far as going forward, it all depends upon how they age. I have no doubt that Trout will end up with the overall better career--probably significantly so--but I do think Betts has a chance of having some better years in the 2021-24ish range, even if my money is still on Trout.

Now it may be that Trout will lose the crown of #1 in a different category: as a hitter. Juan Soto was ridiculous this year, is very young, and should be great going forward. But his atrocious defense will never make him the best player in the game. In a few years, there might be MVP debates between him and Acuna/Tatis like Miggy and Trout in 2012-13, with Yelich and Bellinger playing spoiler.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Angelsjunky