Morosi: Names emerge in Angels GM search

[stormngt]

13 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Eppler has spent more money than Dipoto I don’t understand this argument. Trout. Rendon. Upton. Much more than Albert Hamilton and Wilson. 

Well shit!  Maybe we shouldn't spent so much money on Trout and Rendon!

[stormngt]

7 hours ago, Stradling said:

No, chance the wins per million favors Dipoto.   Dipoto is still getting loses on Albert. So every loss on Eppler for Upton and Rendon, Dipoto is still getting those losses based on Albert. Every loss through 2017 with money going to Albert and Hamilton  is on Dipoto if that how you want to grade this. In free agency Dipoto spent $450 plus million on Wilson, Albert and Hamilton.  Eppler spent $330 million on Upton and Rendon.   Plus all his ugly 1 year pitching contracts. 

Please do not forget Blanton multi year contract.

[kevinb]

10 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Well shit!  Maybe we shouldn't spent so much money on Trout and Rendon!

That's awesome! I am so glad you totally got what I was saying. Also I love Trout the guys top 5 arguably of all time. But I was against re signing him to a 12 year contract I didn't want to pay him over the age of 36. 

[Stradling]

35 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

That's awesome! I am so glad you totally got what I was saying. Also I love Trout the guys top 5 arguably of all time. But I was against re signing him to a 12 year contract I didn't want to pay him over the age of 36. 

So then you were in favor of trading him or letting him walk.  That certainly is an opinion.  

[Second Base]

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Kevinb said:

 

Rendon, all the pitchers I am not calculating, Cozart, the random guys here and there, Upton remember he opted out. 
And total Eppler has spent much more than Dipoto it's really not an argument. Our payroll is significantly more than it was when Dipoto was our GM. Here is the payroll history of the Angels so you don't have to google. Thanks for playing. 
https://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/angels/salaries/2014/team/all/#

Kev.... 

First, you need to start by throwng out the USA Today salary numbers, they are off.... Big time.   They are notoriously bad in part because they tend to lop off dead money and guys being paid to play for other teams.  Its as bad a source for that data as you could possibly find.

Second... C'mon dude.... that's not how salaries work in MLB. 

The Angels payroll in 2012 ranked 4th in MLB, in 2019 it was down to 10th, it would have ranked 12th in 2020.   The dollar figures may have gone up, but when compared to the industry, the payroll has been decreasing....  especially when you consider all the back loaded deals.  Look at AP for example ... AP is making almost three times as much now (30 mi), as he did in his first year 12 mil.  Your comparison puts those dollars on Eppler when he had nothing to do with that deal.  Ditto Mike Trout... His first extension ran through 2020.  He was making 1 mil in 2014 when he signed that deal, by 2018 it was up to 34 mil.  

Look no further than the salary data for 2016, Eppler's first year as GM if you want to get a clearer picture of what was going on...  https://www.spotrac.com/research/MLB/2016-mlb-end-of-year-payrolls-615/    Eppler's big FA add that year was who Pennington?  He traded for Escobar but even if you treat him as a FA it was chump change..... and yet they were up at 180 mil at the end of the season... Who was most of that money going to?  Five guys he had nothing to do with...

Hamilton 26.4 mil, AP 25 mil, Wilson 20 mil, Weaver 20 mil, Trout 16 mil....  That's 107.4 mil, 46.4 mil of dead money.

Get better info, do better research...  You missed the mark here.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

 

Rendon, all the pitchers I am not calculating, Cozart, the random guys here and there, Upton remember he opted out. 
And total Eppler has spent much more than Dipoto it's really not an argument. Our payroll is significantly more than it was when Dipoto was our GM. Here is the payroll history of the Angels so you don't have to google. Thanks for playing. 
https://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/angels/salaries/2014/team/all/#

I'm confused because you keep talking about spending on free agents and then you're including others that weren't free agents.  

Upton never opted out btw.  He signed his extension before become a free agent.  

If you are looking at overall money spent, it's actually about the same although Eppler did so over 5 years while JD did it over 4 years.  

FYI, the numbers from USA today are inaccurate (it's opening day payroll.  not actual which includes guys on the DL etc) .  

Neither did a very good job of spending on the major league club.  But to say that Eppler spent a ton more than JD is just incorrect.  Whether on free agency or just contracts in general.  

Both actually doled out close to a billion in contracts over their tenure.  

JD was left with some baggage and in turn left Eppler with a fair amount.  JD got the major league team more wins but absolutely decimated the farm and development process of the franchise in doing so.  Eppler is leaving the next guy some baggage as well.  But at least the farm is solid, and most of the infrastructure is good.  

[AngelStew43]

There is another list over on CBS sports that has some different names on it.  And none of the names on Morosi's list, in case anyone is interested.

[Lou]

15 minutes ago, AngelStew43 said:

There is another list over on CBS sports that has some different names on it.  And none of the names on Morosi's list, in case anyone is interested.

Ha. I love it. 

"Do your own research, jerks."

[angelsnationtalk]

15 hours ago, totdprods said:

Just because Eppler was process-oriented and didn’t succeed, doesn’t mean it’s not what the organization still wants in a GM or philosophy.

I was one of Eppler’s strongest proponents on the board, but even I can acknowledge that the consistently poor results on short-term vets, year in and year out, over his tenure were enough to justify a change in direction. It’s ironic too, because those players were sort of his calling card with the Yankees. Virtually every single veteran he brought in failed. Virtually every offensive addition failed, until Goodwin, La Stella, and Ohtani, and now Rendon. 

I think he was terrific at building the farm, instituting some structure and semblance or philosophy throughout all ranks of the organization, and was particularly great at finding gems in minor deals, but that track record with stopgap vets was way too much. 

Would not be surprised if Eppler and the Angels both ultimately wind up better off because of this. He will hopefully one day get some credit for all the work he did here, giving the next administration a great ground floor, and he’ll hopefully take his successes and failures here and learn from them and put it all together elsewhere. Hopefully not the AL, and more so not the AL West. 

Good piece.
Yeah, I feel a bit different. I liked Eppler and opposed him at the same time. The reasons I liked him were because of his ability to bring in key names that were important... Trout, Ohtani, Rendon. Opposing reasons were really based off performance which at the end of the day speaks for everything. 

I am curious as to just how much of a cloud Arte is. I know Carpino said he deserves to be involved but in any business the owner needs to let his employees run the show. That's why they are hired. 
Another big reason I opposed him was from a philosophy standpoint. He got to hire his own manager.... Brad Ausmus. I don't know where his opener idea started form but that tore the team apart that year. Granted we had no pitching in the first place, but still the philosophy they had was garbage so I understand why Arte stepped in and hired Maddon.

Eppler was in a hard spot. He couldn't rebuild because he had Trout, but he also couldn't make significant moves because he has Pujols and Upton on the books. 

I really hope the Angels (basically just Arte) does go for a GM who excels very well in developing a farm system and who can bring in one hell of a USA/International scouting team. IF AND ONLY IF Arte also pairs it with finally getting a President of baseball ops to handle bigger acquisitions. One man can't do it all and I hope he's starting to see that.  

[Angel Oracle]

Simply put, it seems that Eppler did as much as he could to fix the farm system, and slowly improve the MLB team.

Now, feel free to join the 21st century Arte Moreno.

Was Arte a Stratomatic fan growing up?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[kevinb]

10 hours ago, Stradling said:

So then you were in favor of trading him or letting him walk.  That certainly is an opinion.  

I was or I was in favor of giving him more money till that 35-36 year. I’ve said it multiple times but I’m not in favor of paying anyone over that age and even 35/36 is pushing it. I’d gladly pay more to have a shorter contract. 

[kevinb]

9 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Kev.... 

First, you need to start by throwng out the USA Today salary numbers, they are off.... Big time.   They are notoriously bad in part because they tend to lop off dead money and guys being paid to play for other teams.  Its as bad a source for that data as you could possibly find.

Second... C'mon dude.... that's not how salaries work in MLB. 

The Angels payroll in 2012 ranked 4th in MLB, in 2019 it was down to 10th, it would have ranked 12th in 2020.   The dollar figures may have gone up, but when compared to the industry, the payroll has been decreasing....  especially when you consider all the back loaded deals.  Look at AP for example ... AP is making almost three times as much now (30 mi), as he did in his first year 12 mil.  Your comparison puts those dollars on Eppler when he had nothing to do with that deal.  Ditto Mike Trout... His first extension ran through 2020.  He was making 1 mil in 2014 when he signed that deal, by 2018 it was up to 34 mil.  

Look no further than the salary data for 2016, Eppler's first year as GM if you want to get a clearer picture of what was going on...  https://www.spotrac.com/research/MLB/2016-mlb-end-of-year-payrolls-615/    Eppler's big FA add that year was who Pennington?  He traded for Escobar but even if you treat him as a FA it was chump change..... and yet they were up at 180 mil at the end of the season... Who was most of that money going to?  Five guys he had nothing to do with...

Hamilton 26.4 mil, AP 25 mil, Wilson 20 mil, Weaver 20 mil, Trout 16 mil....  That's 107.4 mil, 46.4 mil of dead money.

Get better info, do better research...  You missed the mark here.

My comparison isn’t trying to put pujols hamilton or Wilson on Eppler. Simply putting Upton Rendon his pitching acquisitions and the handful of random free agent players he signed and players he traded for that cost money like Simmons. Dipoto spent 250 on pujols 125 on Hamilton and honestly can’t remember on Wilson it was somewhere in the 75 million range? Maybe it’s closer than I originally thought. But with trout as well it’s not close. It’s been a hectic ass couple weeks at work so I don’t have a ton of time to research the ins and outs of all the numbers maybe it’s closer than I thought. But me tallying up all those guys seems like it’s a landslide with Eppler spending money to Dipoto. Plus Dipoto was only here 3 years? To Epplers 5. 

[kevinb]

8 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I'm confused because you keep talking about spending on free agents and then you're including others that weren't free agents.  

Upton never opted out btw.  He signed his extension before become a free agent.  

If you are looking at overall money spent, it's actually about the same although Eppler did so over 5 years while JD did it over 4 years.  

FYI, the numbers from USA today are inaccurate (it's opening day payroll.  not actual which includes guys on the DL etc) .  

Neither did a very good job of spending on the major league club.  But to say that Eppler spent a ton more than JD is just incorrect.  Whether on free agency or just contracts in general.  

Both actually doled out close to a billion in contracts over their tenure.  

JD was left with some baggage and in turn left Eppler with a fair amount.  JD got the major league team more wins but absolutely decimated the farm and development process of the franchise in doing so.  Eppler is leaving the next guy some baggage as well.  But at least the farm is solid, and most of the infrastructure is good.  

So even if Upton didn’t opt out which I thought he did then they added years on. He still added Upton and his salary. And then re signed his salary for more years. Which is still increasing payroll similar to the Simmons trade it increased payroll. 
 

Also none of this was meant to bag on Eppler or Dipoto. Both I feel failed the Angels. It started with the premise that @Second Basesaid something to the effect that Arte wouldn’t trust someone else spending the kind of money Dipoto did and I disagreed. I don’t know how it devolved into this but here we are

[eligrba]

I think Arte has had a say on signing some free agents but not all. I doubt that Arte has had much input on scouting, drafting and development other than writing the checks. I could be wrong but in the one year of Joe Maddon, more AAAA players seemed to improve than with Eppler's plan.

[Stradling]

51 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I was or I was in favor of giving him more money till that 35-36 year. I’ve said it multiple times but I’m not in favor of paying anyone over that age and even 35/36 is pushing it. I’d gladly pay more to have a shorter contract. 

Which means you’d have to trade him or let him walk. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

My comparison isn’t trying to put pujols hamilton or Wilson on Eppler. Simply putting Upton Rendon his pitching acquisitions and the handful of random free agent players he signed and players he traded for that cost money like Simmons. Dipoto spent 250 on pujols 125 on Hamilton and honestly can’t remember on Wilson it was somewhere in the 75 million range? Maybe it’s closer than I originally thought. But with trout as well it’s not close. It’s been a hectic ass couple weeks at work so I don’t have a ton of time to research the ins and outs of all the numbers maybe it’s closer than I thought. But me tallying up all those guys seems like it’s a landslide with Eppler spending money to Dipoto. Plus Dipoto was only here 3 years? To Epplers 5. 

You're comparing year by year total payrolls to each other and claiming the facts support your opinion... in doing so you're putting those deals onto Eppler.   

You also continue to lump extensions to players with FAs and talk up Trout for Eppler but seemingly forget the 144 million extension he signed under Dipoto or the extensions to HK and Aybar at 35 mil each.  He also traded for and extended Iannetta for 15 mil -- all those deals came in year number 1 of his tenure.  You mention Eppler's pitching acquisitions and completely forget about Madsen, Burnett, Blanton and Street (another extenstion 19 mil) -- those guys cost the Angels 45 mil, one of them didn't pitch for them at all and still managed to get a roster bonus ... I guess he went on the DL?

In an apples to apples comparison of who spent more on FA's -- Dipoto wins.     You can move the goal posts all you like to try to make your case but when it comes to FAs, there just is no discussion to be had.

[redoctober2002]

2 hours ago, angelsnationtalk said:

He got to hire his own manager.... Brad Ausmus. I don't know where his opener idea started form but that tore the team apart that year. Granted we had no pitching in the first place, but still the philosophy they had was garbage so I understand why Arte stepped in and hired Maddon.

Could you elaborate on this? Are you saying that the players didn't like the use of openers or are you against the use of openers? Teams like the Rays, Yankees, and Dodgers have used the opener with success so its not some fringe theory. Though I'd agree that you have to have a good bullpen to make it work.

[kevinb]

48 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Which means you’d have to trade him or let him walk. 

Sure if he wouldn't have accepted that then ok. It happens. 

[kevinb]

30 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

You're comparing year by year total payrolls to each other and claiming the facts support your opinion... in doing so you're putting those deals onto Eppler.   

You also continue to lump extensions to players with FAs and talk up Trout for Eppler but seemingly forget the 144 million extension he signed under Dipoto or the extensions to HK and Aybar at 35 mil each.  He also traded for and extended Iannetta for 15 mil -- all those deals came in year number 1 of his tenure.  You mention Eppler's pitching acquisitions and completely forget about Madsen, Burnett, Blanton and Street (another extenstion 19 mil) -- those guys cost the Angels 45 mil, one of them didn't pitch for them at all and still managed to get a roster bonus ... I guess he went on the DL?

In an apples to apples comparison of who spent more on FA's -- Dipoto wins.     You can move the goal posts all you like to try to make your case but when it comes to FAs, there just is no discussion to be had.

Totally forgot about those pitching acquisition of Dipoto and the extensions of HK and EA and the trade for Iannetta. Good point. I guess they are a lot closer than I would have thought. Appreciate the clarification with out the subtle digs rudeness etc, I guess perception is not always reality. My perception seems off on this one then. 

[Dtwncbad]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:12 AM, Second Base said:

Michael Hill is the PERFECT candidate for this position. He's still relatively young, in his 40's, with over 10 years of GM/president experience. He built weave after wave of strong Marlins teams only to be undercut by a cheap and middling owner of that makes Arte Moreno look like a saint. 

Imagine what this guy can do with an actual decent sized budget. He might be one off the best GM's in baseball and many people don't realize it.

Micahael Hill has worked closely under Derek Jeter.  
 

We should know by now that this is a gift that keeps on giving.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

So even if Upton didn’t opt out which I thought he did then they added years on. He still added Upton and his salary. And then re signed his salary for more years. Which is still increasing payroll similar to the Simmons trade it increased payroll. 
 

Also none of this was meant to bag on Eppler or Dipoto. Both I feel failed the Angels. It started with the premise that @Second Basesaid something to the effect that Arte wouldn’t trust someone else spending the kind of money Dipoto did and I disagreed. I don’t know how it devolved into this but here we are

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/rather-than-opting-out-justin-upton-signs-new-five-year-deal-to-remain-with-angels/

just for clarification.  but the point is that they both spent a lot of money and didn't do a very good job of such.  Eppler absolutely had the ability to spend so I agree it's not apples and oranges.  

another point of clarification is that JD had control over 4 years worth of teams.  Not 3.  2012-2015.  It devolved because you made an inaccurate statement but to question Scotty's premise was fair.  Any gm in the past or going forward is going to be able to spend relative to payroll limits.  

Your comment also brought up an important issue that you like to ignore and that's what each GM had to work with upon their entry point.  You can't look at stuff like this in a vacuum.  It matters.  It matter what they were left with as to how they proceed.  

[Inside Pitch]

32 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Totally forgot about those pitching acquisition of Dipoto and the extensions of HK and EA and the trade for Iannetta. Good point. I guess they are a lot closer than I would have thought. Appreciate the clarification with out the subtle digs rudeness etc, I guess perception is not always reality. My perception seems off on this one then. 

Good to see you so willing to engage and hear others out dude.. so, Props.   The forum has been a good read lately, not a lot of the sort of crap you talking about... just people debating, discussing, and sharing their opinions minus the petty BS.    It makes for a better experience for all of us.  

 

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

You're comparing year by year total payrolls to each other and claiming the facts support your opinion... in doing so you're putting those deals onto Eppler.   

You also continue to lump extensions to players with FAs and talk up Trout for Eppler but seemingly forget the 144 million extension he signed under Dipoto or the extensions to HK and Aybar at 35 mil each.  He also traded for and extended Iannetta for 15 mil -- all those deals came in year number 1 of his tenure.  You mention Eppler's pitching acquisitions and completely forget about Madsen, Burnett, Blanton and Street (another extenstion 19 mil) -- those guys cost the Angels 45 mil, one of them didn't pitch for them at all and still managed to get a roster bonus ... I guess he went on the DL?

In an apples to apples comparison of who spent more on FA's -- Dipoto wins.     You can move the goal posts all you like to try to make your case but when it comes to FAs, there just is no discussion to be had.

His Method is confusing.

Actually, it's far closer in terms of external acquisition costs minus extensions.

(I'm including only the fifth year of Upton as an extension, which is how it should be done, he acquired 85.5M and gave him an additional 20 ish).

Dipoto acquired players that cost 544.17M in his 3.5 years (4 off seasons), and Eppler acquired players that cost 590.5 in his 5. Total costs were 781.645M for Dipoto, and 1054.966M for Eppler.

Eppler never once acquired a pitcher for a big multi-year contract (more than three years), in either free agency or via trade (arbitration doesn't count).

Dipoto only added one starter, in CJ Wilson, having inherited the Weaver contract, and one reliever, in Joe Smith.

Eppler signed two free agents to more than 100 M dollar deals, Anthony Rendon, and Justin Upton. This was more than half of his external acquisitions, at 351M of the 590.5, 59%.

Dipoto also signed two, in Albert Pujols and Josh Hamilton. This was more than 2/3 of his external acquisition cost at 365 of his 544.17 (67%)

Dipoto spent roughly 45M on relievers. Only one was a very good acquisition. Eppler spent about 46 and about 1/3 were good acquisitions.

Dipoto spent 100.5 on Starter Acquisitons, and Eppler spent 52.75, which is very low. Most all were busts.

Dipoto spent 400 roughly on position players, whereas Eppler spent almost 500. Most were good.

And you wonder why they've had trouble pitching in the last 9 seasons.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

21 hours ago, Tank said:

sorry, copper, but he's doing a dime upstate.

With covid, everything is done via zoom anyway. 

 

Facial burn!