Jo Adell

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

I think he'll be a very good player one day, but man, does it look like he was incredibly rushed.  I have to say this one is totally on Eppler.  Rookies can struggle, and that's entirely normal, but Adell didn't just struggle, he was just flat out awful in basically every single phase of the game.

Let the kid develop in AAA next year, and when he's tearing the cover off the ball and playing good defense, then promote him.  

He played exactly as expected while flashing the skills that make him so tantalizing a prospect.  Seriously, none of the guys that watched him play in the minors are all that surprised to see him get his lunch handed to him, but the speed, the crazy bat speed and power potential....  Its there, he's just not ready.

[Jason]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

He played exactly as expected while flashing the skills that make him so tantalizing a prospect.  Seriously, none of the guys that watched him play in the minors are all that surprised to see him get his lunch handed to him, but the speed, the crazy bat speed and power potential....  Its there, he's just not ready.

In no way am I an expert on developing Major league talent but I do not understand why he looks so lost defensively in the outfield. We often see these guys struggle at the plate and that makes a lot of sense to me but it doesn't seem like its that often that they struggle so much with the glove, especially in the outfield. Maybe its just me though as I don't pay as close attention to this as some of you do. 

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Jason said:

In no way am I an expert on developing Major league talent but I do not understand why he looks so lost defensively in the outfield. We often see these guys struggle at the plate and that makes a lot of sense to me but it doesn't seem like its that often that they struggle so much with the glove, especially in the outfield. Maybe its just me though as I don't pay as close attention to this as some of you do. 

I think there is a tendency with him to chase the flash over the substance at times ... It seems to bite him in the ass every so often, but it may just be a case of his athleticism making it look that way.  Take that play last night, dude ran a long ways and hit the wall with his arm, he covered the distance super easily so that may have masked how hard the impact was but that ball went flying off the glove.  It's fair to question how he had it pop out but, that was a large man moving very fast and a solid object refusing to move.  I do agree with those who expected him to be better in RF, but the lack of experience there isn't lost on me.

[Blarg]

224 games in the minor leagues. Why isn't he a major league talent!

Torii Hunter spent 625 games in the minors. Anderson 550, Edmonds 440, Salmon between college and minors over 400. 

You can go through the list of outfielders that have locked down a mlb job and almost all have more college/minor league time than Adell. Even Trout spent more time in the minors before his first call up and he is a once in a generation talent. 

Adell had his 2019 season interrupted by injury that wiped out two months. His 2020 minor league season completely scrubbed. To think he was ready for this was a stupid expectation based on a complete lack of context. 

 

[Warfarin]

24 minutes ago, Blarg said:

224 games in the minor leagues. Why isn't he a major league talent!

Torii Hunter spent 625 games in the minors. Anderson 550, Edmonds 440, Salmon between college and minors over 400. 

You can go through the list of outfielders that have locked down a mlb job and almost all have more college/minor league time than Adell. Even Trout spent more time in the minors before his first call up and he is a once in a generation talent. 

Adell had his 2019 season interrupted by injury that wiped out two months. His 2020 minor league season completely scrubbed. To think he was ready for this was a stupid expectation based on a complete lack of context. 

 

Right, and Eppler needs to take ownership of this.  I believe Adell will be a really good player in the future, but prospects shouldn’t be rushed when they clearly aren’t ready to at least produce competitive at-bats.

Adell struggled mightily in SLC, which is a notable offensive haven.  Who knows how he looked exactly in LB in July.

 I know there are difficult schools of thought in terms of rookie struggles.  I believe every rookie struggles to a degree, as there’s a big learning curve in the MLB.  But what I feel happened is that Eppler saw our team mightily struggling to start the year, knew this was the last year of his contract, and was hoping to catch lightning in the bottle with Adell.

Obviously, it did not turn out well.  Optimistically, we can only hope this incredibly humbling year will only help him, but I do believe that sometimes, hasty promotions can cause developmental harm, too

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

Trout has had that happen as well. That's a home run over the fence even if doesn't get there. 
 

no, it isn’t a home run if he doesn’t get there

 

But let's burn the rookie to the ground for playing a total of one game in center field this season in a stadium he's never played in before.
 

and yes I totally agree with this point

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

11 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

Right, and Eppler needs to take ownership of this.  I believe Adell will be a really good player in the future, but prospects shouldn’t be rushed when they clearly aren’t ready to at least produce competitive at-bats.

To be honest, Eppler's minor league system has consistently pushed guys up the ladder at a very aggressive pace.  The idea being that making guys face tougher competition forces them to get better even if they struggle initially -- it's just mostly gone on in the minors and people haven't taken notice unless they followed those teams.   He wasn't ready, I think they knew that but I believe they saw him facing MLB pitching to be better for him long term than being in LB seeing the same 10-15 guys.

I was one of people saying that calls for his promotion were premature..  so, I'm not at all making excuses for the kid, but beyond stating what I considered to be obvious at the time, it had more to do with wanting to actually trying to win games, than concerns about Adell..   

[Stradling]

I believe they knew he’d struggle, they also felt he had the make up to handle the struggle, but they felt him playing in actual games was what was best for his specific development.   

[eligrba]

It was good to see him get a couple of hits last night.

[Warfarin]

38 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

To be honest, Eppler's minor league system has consistently pushed guys up the ladder at a very aggressive pace.  The idea being that making guys face tougher competition forces them to get better even if they struggle initially -- it's just mostly gone on in the minors and people haven't taken notice unless they followed those teams.   He wasn't ready, I think they knew that but I believe they saw him facing MLB pitching to be better for him long term than being in LB seeing the same 10-15 guys.

I was one of people saying that calls for his promotion were premature..  so, I'm not at all making excuses for the kid, but beyond stating what I considered to be obvious at the time, it had more to do with wanting to actually trying to win games, than concerns about Adell..   

Yeah - I mean, I get it.  And if this rough year for him ultimately helps facilitate his development and makes him into a really good MLB player, that's awesome.  It's hard to say what the best route is.  Still, that said, as I observe what most organizations do, it does seem players get promoted when they can at least be competitive and battle, even if it leads to considerable struggles.

It's just as I watched him out there, I didn't see a player who was almost ready - I saw a guy who was probably one whole year of minor league development away or so.  But if this helps him out, and we see him enter next year looking much better and ready to play in the MLB, then that's fine and the experiment worked.  Only time will tell.

[Second Base]

The thing you have to realize about elite athletes like Adell is they have no developmental time because they never struggle, they never needed to adjust.

They're too athletic to fail in rookie ball. The environment is harder in A Ball but the talent is about the same. Guys like Adell are men amongst boys. The Cal League won't challenge them. AA might show the down for a season but that's about it. Salt Lake, the ball flies too far and won't prepare them for the big leagues.

This year was necessary for Adell. He needed to see a level of competition where he couldn't get by on athleticism. He HAD to fail, otherwise you delay his development another year. 

Contrast Adell with David Fletcher, who has had to work his tail off for everything. Nothing was handed to him. He didn't hit the genetic jackpot like Trout or Adell, who could've played basketball or football as well. By the time Fletch made his debut, he'd been fighting and adjusting since he was a college freshman. 

I know it might bum some of you out, but in truth, Brandon Marsh would've had an easier time in the majors than Jo because of his plate discipline and defensive abilities.

Jo may not be ready to breakout until 2022. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Second Base

[Claude]

3 hours ago, Blarg said:

Trout has had that happen as well. That's a home run over the fence even if doesn't get there. But let's burn the rookie to the ground for playing a total of one game in center field this season in a stadium he's never played in before.

Well he definitely gave it a great effort but that ball would’ve hit the wall if he didn’t get there. Props to Adell for even being close enough to the play.

[AngelsLakersFan]

On 9/17/2020 at 7:09 PM, Dochalo said:

that myth was created by this board or others who don't have access to seeing him on a regular.   He was brought up after 10 games.  Upton was struggling but we've seen Upton be streaky before.  Upton went back to playing almost right away and Goodwin wasn't traded until 35 games in.  And you had Ward.  Fletcher can also play RF.  There were ways around it.  Maybe an argument could have been made for bringing him up after Goodwin was traded.  Maybe.  But that was 12 games ago. 

I just don't see it.  He's 21.  He struggled at AAA last year.  He had limited action this year and no minor league seasoning.  Very little spring.  You can watch him for 5 games and see that he's a hot mess in RF after a mere 45 total reps at that spot as a pro.  He swung through fastballs in AAA last year and whiffed at a greater than 30% clip with no power.   And it's, not surprisingly, even worse now at the major league level.  

How does the front office not see this coming.  And my ultimate point is why push it.  Why take the chance.  We could have easily gotten away without bringing him up.   

I'm gonna give a little defense of Eppler on this one, with the caveat that I think he does serve some criticism for the move. Adell is a huge part of the future of this organization. I think he was expected to contribute at some point this year and have the job handed to him in 2021. The canceling of the 2020 minor league season throws that all out the window. Adell missed half of last year due to his base running injury and now he was looking at another season of mostly lost development time practicing with a handful of guys in Long Beach. Ultimately I think they decided, with the knowledge that he wasn't ready, that what was best for his development was to be exposed to a level of play beyond his current abilities as opposed to a glorified training camp.

[Blarg]

3 hours ago, Second Base said:

Jo may not be ready to breakout until 2022. 

That would make him 23, the same age Hunter, Anderson and Erstad established themselves as major league players. Edmonds and Salmon were 24.

Trout ruined Angels fans as to expectations when players are finished products and ready for the big leagues. 

[stormngt]

5 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I think there is a tendency with him to chase the flash over the substance at times ... It seems to bite him in the ass every so often, but it may just be a case of his athleticism making it look that way.  Take that play last night, dude ran a long ways and hit the wall with his arm, he covered the distance super easily so that may have masked how hard the impact was but that ball went flying off the glove.  Its fair to question how he had it pop out but, that was a large man moving very fast and a solid object refusing to move.  I do agree with those who expected him to be better in RF, but the lack of experience there isn't lost on me.

Does anyone have a video of that play?  I didnt see it last night.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

Does anyone have a video of that play?  I didnt see it last night.

Here you go Storm

 

[tdawg87]

I also think guys like Tatis Jr., Vlad Jr., Acuña etc...have made expectations unrealistic. Not everyone comes up and just tears the house down immediately. Trout didn't.

Adell was horrid this year, though. In every facet of the game he sucked balls. 

He's by no means done or a bust or losing a ton of value (dude just wasn't ready), but he still was a steaming hot dumpster fire.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

16 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I also think guys like Tatis Jr., Vlad Jr., Acuña etc...have made expectations unrealistic. Not everyone comes up and just tears the house down immediately. Trout didn't.

Adell was horrid this year, though. In every facet of the game he sucked balls. 

He's by no means done or a bust or losing a ton of value (dude just wasn't ready), but he still was a steaming hot dumpster fire.

 

I wasn't expecting him to be ready, but as others have said, I didn't expect him to look so lost on defense. 

[Angelsjunky]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

He played exactly as expected while flashing the skills that make him so tantalizing a prospect.  Seriously, none of the guys that watched him play in the minors are all that surprised to see him get his lunch handed to him, but the speed, the crazy bat speed and power potential....  Its there, he's just not ready.

Hmm...I think you exaggerate a bit. Exactly as expected? Did we expect a bit more than a 34 wRC+, -1.3 WAR in his first 37 games, with terrible defense? At the least, I would have liked OK defense and below average, but passable, offense. But he played about as badly as I would have expected from Deveaux or Knowles, if they had been called up. 

[Angelsjunky]

19 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I also think guys like Tatis Jr., Vlad Jr., Acuña etc...have made expectations unrealistic. Not everyone comes up and just tears the house down immediately. Trout didn't.

Adell was horrid this year, though. In every facet of the game he sucked balls. 

He's by no means done or a bust or losing a ton of value (dude just wasn't ready), but he still was a steaming hot dumpster fire.

 

It seems that premier prospects either show up fully formed like Tatis and Acuna, or are pretty good like Vlad Jr and Griffey. Trout struggled in his first taste, but quickly became awesome. 

To be fair to Adell, despite my previous post, Trout was also pretty bad in his first exposure. But Trout was 16 months younger, and I don't get the sense that Adell is a good game or two from killing it, like Trout did in 2012. Adell needs at least a few months in AAA, and maybe a year or more. I bet that by this time next year, Brandon Marsh will have more major league PA to his name.

[Angel]

4 hours ago, Second Base said:

The thing you have to realize about elite athletes like Adell is they have no developmental time because they never struggle, they never needed to adjust.

They're too athletic to fail in rookie ball. The environment is harder in A Ball but the talent is about the same. Guys like Adell are men amongst boys. The Cal League won't challenge them. AA might show the down for a season but that's about it. Salt Lake, the ball flies too far and won't prepare them for the big leagues.

This year was necessary for Adell. He needed to see a level of competition where he couldn't get by on athleticism. He HAD to fail, otherwise you delay his development another year. 

Contrast Adell with David Fletcher, who has had to work his tail off for everything. Nothing was handed to him. He didn't hit the genetic jackpot like Trout or Adell, who could've played basketball or football as well. By the time Fletch made his debut, he'd been fighting and adjusting since he was a college freshman. 

I know it might bum some of you out, but in truth, Brandon Marsh would've had an easier time in the majors than Jo because of his plate discipline and defensive abilities.

Jo may not be ready to breakout until 2022. 

We need to trade Adell as soon as he hits MLB pitching consistently, he's as streaky as they come and a complete mental case.  He's a rich man's Goodwin but a RHH which makes him less valuable.  Marsh is the future RFer of the Angels.  We need no idiots in the outfield.

[AngelsLakersFan]

8 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

To be fair to Adell, despite my previous post, Trout was also pretty bad in his first exposure. 

This is another one of those narratives that just isn't true. Yes he was not "Mike Trout" good in his first call up, but he was pretty clearly already a major league caliber player.

[Inside Pitch]

39 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Hmm...I think you exaggerate a bit. Exactly as expected? Did we expect a bit more than a 34 wRC+, -1.3 WAR in his first 37 games, with terrible defense? At the least, I would have liked OK defense and below average, but passable, offense. But he played about as badly as I would have expected from Deveaux or Knowles, if they had been called up. 

You think wrong, but I was only speaking for myself and I should have stressed that.

I was vocal about him not being close to ready BEFORE he came up.   His defense was probably worse than I would have expected but he was playing RF and not CF and it's not like I didn't listen to them call him butchering plays in RF during the first ST.

But yes, I expected him to do poorly.  I was pretty adamant about his issues telling balls from strikes and his inability to turn on FBs at AAA -- check the "Let Adell play" thread.  Pull rate on FBs is one of the biggest indicators that a hitter is ready to take the next step, it allows us to determine whether a hitter can identify and then actually hit the FB.  It all starts there.   Adell was well below league average, even after taking his age into consideration.  It's also why I argued that Marsh was likely further along and more likely to succeed, or rather, be less awful.

Again, I should have been clear I was speaking for myself, only.

It's also why I wasn't jumping off ledges when he tanked.

[Angel]

Adell would have been a good football player, but definitely not a receiver , oh well.

[Angel Oracle]

On 9/17/2020 at 12:30 PM, stormngt said:

I am not arguing that Adell shouldn't be.  If there was a AAA playing I would argue he should be there.

And I doubt he needs 2 or 3 years.  I think one year of AAA

This, as he was kicking AA’s pitchers’ butts when promoted to AAA in 2019.

Give him at least half of 2021 in AAA.   His history is struggling at first at each level, and then kicking butt before being promoted.

Blarg’s point is well taken.   Only 222 minor league games so far, basically almost just 2 seasons, out of HS.

I am actually going to predict that he starts solidly at AAA in 2021, then by May/June kicks butt and is called up for good by July at the latest.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Angel Oracle