Gameday Thread: Angels vs. Diamondbacks (9/15/2020)

[Angel Oracle]

24 minutes ago, Fourts said:

Even at $10M/year (low end likely) -- i don't see how any Angel fan could support resigning Simmons when we need pitching so bad.  I'm not even talking SP...how much better is this BP if you spent $10M on it?  Yes, RP is up/down, but getting one or two proven vet guys would go a long ways to improve the team.  I'd first use that money on a SP, but fallback would be on 1-2 RPs. 

Thing is, do you want to see significantly worst defense, given how mediocre it was especially when Simba was on the DL?

Re-sign Simba, sign Gausman, and find two more clean peanut relievers  including a closer.

Then if they somehow are close in 2021, then after that season go over the tax threshold for a year (Upton off books after 2022) and bring in a strong starting pitcher, no more contracts over $80-$100 million total though.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Angels in 2030]

Yeah, i hear you AO but then again...there's no guarantee Simba can stay healthy for 150+ games a year.  He keeps breaking down and that's a bad trend at his age.  Not to mention, eventually that elite D is going to fade some.  Not to bad, but the injuries and only great (instead of amazing) D makes me less inclined to re-up him considering all the other deficiencies on the P staff.

It's basically what do you want to sacrifice?  We've already seen this story.  Time to try something else.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I can see all the temptations that might lead into letting Simmons go but it will be a huge mistake. The team has far too many question marks as it is to open up a few more.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Fourts said:

Even at $10M/year (low end likely) -- i don't see how any Angel fan could support resigning Simmons when we need pitching so bad.  I'm not even talking SP...how much better is this BP if you spent $10M on it?  Yes, RP is up/down, but getting one or two proven vet guys would go a long ways to improve the team.  I'd first use that money on a SP, but fallback would be on 1-2 RPs. 

We need run prevention.  That can come from defense and pitching.  

If Simmons walks we are going to need to pay for a replacement who isnt as good.

As for pitching we only really need one frontline starter.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, stormngt said:

If Simmons walks we are going to need to pay for a replacement who isnt as good.

The idea would be to move Fletcher to SS and let Rengifo and Baretto battle it out for second base.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The idea would be to move Fletcher to SS and let Rengifo and Baretto battle it out for second base.

Fletcher. And Rengifro or Baretto is not nearly as good as Simmons and Fletcher.

We will probably let Simmons walk.  Sign another "Teheron" for 9 million.  Let him play pitch batting practice and weaken our infield defense because of we relied on Renifro/Barretto instead of extending Simmons.

Edited September 16, 2020 by stormngt

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Fletcher. And Rengifro or Baretto is not nearly as good as Simmons and Fletcher.

We will probably let Simmons walk.  Sign another "Teheron" for 9 million.  Let him play pitch batting practice and weaken our infield defense because of we relied on Teninfro/Barretto instead of extending Simmons.

That is exactly what I expect to happen, though I think we will shoot a little higher than Teheran 2.0 ... of course we did shoot a lot higher than that last year and still came up with Teheran 1.0...

[Angels in 2030]

Or you use that extra money to give you the winning bid for that front line starter.  Or instead use it to fortify the BP -- or have we already forgotten about the bad BP after just a few good outings.

Simmons may very well end up costing more than 10M/year.

Again, it's not an easy call.  You plug one hole and open up another.  But we have a SS option in Fletcher.  Not equal in defense obviously.  But that decrease in D + a (theoretical) increase in pitching is > than Simba + our same ol' crappy batch of Ps.

What happens if in 2021 Simba's defensive decline starts to begin.....or he simply can't stay healthy and on the field?  I guess some want to continue doing the same thing over & over and expect a different result.    

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

11 minutes ago, Fourts said:

Or you use that extra money to give you the winning bid for that front line starter.  Or instead use it to fortify the BP -- or have we already forgotten about the bad BP after just a few good outings.

Simmons may very well end up costing more than 10M/year.

Again, it's not an easy call.  You plug one hole and open up another.  But we have a SS option in Fletcher.  Not equal in defense obviously.  But that decrease in D + a (theoretical) increase in pitching is > than Simba + our same ol' crappy batch of Ps.

What happens if in 2021 Simba's defensive decline starts to begin.....or he simply can't stay healthy and on the field?  I guess some want to continue doing the same thing over & over and expect a different result.    

 

These are all fair arguments for letting Simba walk, ultimately I'm confident that without retaining him next year's team will struggle to be better than this one. I'll give you a couple of reasons why I think this way.

This team's worst performance this year hasn't been the pitching (yes its been bad too) it's been the defense. 27th best defense according to FG. Losing Simba weakens the defense at two positions.

I like the idea of spending money for the right guy in the pen but Eppler has done that once (Allen) and it failed miserably and the stats show that long term you are basically throwing your money away. Given 162 games to figure it out Eppler has generally been able to build passable pens.

We have already lost Goodwin's and La Stella's bat, and the easiest place to upgrade the offense or replace their production would be via a first basemen or DH. Right now I think it's safe to say that Upton, Adell and Ohtani will be penciled into the lineup next year and they are question marks, Walsh has probably played himself into the lineup at first as well. We could really use some flexibility and production here but this is probably an area we look to save some money. If we do we are going into the season with big question marks at 4 positions.

Giving 2B to Rengifo and Barreto moves the question marks to 5 positions. Now I know you questioned Simba's ability to stay healthy (a legit concern) but I'd rather be counting on Rengifo/Barreto to fill in for an injured Simmons than to cover for him while staying healthy themselves all year.

If we go into the year with question marks at 5 positions, with money spent on a reliever and a reliable starter I think we finish at .500 at best. The odds on the reliever panning out is 50/50, and we can guarantee that 2 or 3 of the question marks will turn into holes, and we will spend at least 1/3rd of the season figuring out who is a major league caliber second basemen. If they retain Simmons they don't have to worry about this team up the middle, they put out an improved defense and need one less player to produce.

 

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Fourts said:

Or you use that extra money to give you the winning bid for that front line starter.  Or instead use it to fortify the BP -- or have we already forgotten about the bad BP after just a few good outings.

Simmons may very well end up costing more than 10M/year.

Again, it's not an easy call.  You plug one hole and open up another.  But we have a SS option in Fletcher.  Not equal in defense obviously.  But that decrease in D + a (theoretical) increase in pitching is > than Simba + our same ol' crappy batch of Ps.

What happens if in 2021 Simba's defensive decline starts to begin.....or he simply can't stay healthy and on the field?  I guess some want to continue doing the same thing over & over and expect a different result.    

 

If we only have enough money for one starter than yes we have to let Simmons go.  However I am hoping we have enough for Simmons and a starter.

Edited September 16, 2020 by stormngt

[Jay]

Angels need to go 11-0 to get to 31 wins.

[stormngt]

One thing I don't get.  The Angel's must believe they will try to extend Simmons.  Otherwise why wasn't he traded for just about anything. 

[Angels in 2030]

27 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

These are all fair arguments for letting Simba walk, ultimately I'm confident that without retaining him next year's team will struggle to be better than this one. I'll give you a couple of reasons why I think this way.

This team's worst performance this year hasn't been the pitching (yes its been bad too) it's been the defense. 27th best defense according to FG. Losing Simba weakens the defense at two positions.

I like the idea of spending money for the right guy in the pen but Eppler has done that once (Allen) and it failed miserably and the stats show that long term you are basically throwing your money away. Given 162 games to figure it out Eppler has generally been able to build passable pens.

We have already lost Goodwin's and La Stella's bat, and the easiest place to upgrade the offense or replace their production would be via a first basemen or DH. Right now I think it's safe to say that Upton, Adell and Ohtani will be penciled into the lineup next year and they are question marks, Walsh has probably played himself into the lineup at first as well. We could really use some flexibility and production here but this is probably an area we look to save some money. If we do we are going into the season with big question marks at 4 positions.

Giving 2B to Rengifo and Barreto moves the question marks to 5 positions. Now I know you questioned Simba's ability to stay healthy (a legit concern) but I'd rather be counting on Rengifo/Barreto to fill in for an injured Simmons than to cover for him while staying healthy themselves all year.

If we go into the year with question marks at 5 positions, with money spent on a reliever and a reliable starter I think we finish at .500 at best. The odds on the reliever panning out is 50/50, and we can guarantee that 2 or 3 of the question marks will turn into holes, and we will spend at least 1/3rd of the season figuring out who is a major league caliber second basemen. If they retain Simmons they don't have to worry about this team up the middle, they put out an improved defense and need one less player to produce.

 

I agree with you actually.  It's just i'm frustrated doing the same thing over & over.  I think both ways have their plus & minuses.  There is not clear and easy answer.  Well, resigning Simba and spending on pitching -- but i don't see that happening.  I see limited funds to spend this offseason.  Trades will be the option to go.  I personally just am concerned giving $10M+/yr to simba when there are other issues.  I'd rather get one stud RP and go young at SS (even if that means weakening defense up the middle).  But we're talking 51/49 confidence in that option. 

Heck, another option could be to trade for a short-term cheaper defensive SS -- which is much easier to do than trading for pitching these days.  You can keep Fletch at 2B and we'd have more funds to spend on P.  There are more options than simply overspending on Simba.  But maybe Simba will have very little options and he'll returns for $7-8M (very, very unlikely).   

[AngelsLakersFan]

11 minutes ago, Fourts said:

I agree with you actually.  It's just i'm frustrated doing the same thing over & over.  I think both ways have their plus & minuses.  There is not clear and easy answer.  Well, resigning Simba and spending on pitching -- but i don't see that happening.  I see limited funds to spend this offseason.  Trades will be the option to go.  I personally just am concerned giving $10M+/yr to simba when there are other issues.  I'd rather get one stud RP and go young at SS (even if that means weakening defense up the middle).  But we're talking 51/49 confidence in that option. 

Heck, another option could be to trade for a short-term cheaper defensive SS -- which is much easier to do than trading for pitching these days.  You can keep Fletch at 2B and we'd have more funds to spend on P.  There are more options than simply overspending on Simba.  But maybe Simba will have very little options and he'll returns for $7-8M (very, very unlikely).   

I do think the market for Simmons will be weak... teams with a need are probably looking to next year's class. With that in mind I think Simmons could be a bargain. Of course as you said it all comes down to cost, and there very well may be some good options on the trade market. Without knowing who could be available via trade my hope is the Angels focus on limiting the downside risk of their roster, which is the type of failure we've seen the last couple of seasons. Decent, reliable production is what we need to find for as many positions as possible. We have a lot of options but very few reliable ones.

[DMVol]

13 minutes ago, stormngt said:

One thing I don't get.  The Angel's must believe they will try to extend Simmons.  Otherwise why wasn't he traded for just about anything. 

Didn't seem to be much market for a SS....Yanks and Blue Jays were mentioned but don't think anybody else was...I doubt the decision has been made whether to extend him or not....if we have a new GM (maybe likely), how would you know now what that guy thinks about it...may be all in for pitching or may be willing to bite the bullet and keep Simmons for defense...

[stormngt]

3 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Didn't seem to be much market for a SS....Yanks and Blue Jays were mentioned but don't think anybody else was...I doubt the decision has been made whether to extend him or not....if we have a new GM (maybe likely), how would you know now what that guy thinks about it...may be all in for pitching or may be willing to bite the bullet and keep Simmons for defense...

If there wasnt much of a trade market this summer, how come his contract would be too expensive this winter?

[DMVol]

20 minutes ago, stormngt said:

If there wasnt much of a trade market this summer, how come his contract would be too expensive this winter?

I think you hit the nail on the head....there may not be much of a market for Simmons this winter...he may be back with the Angels by default but it depends on who the GM is and how money is allocated....Simmons is a good player but sometimes the market just isn't there, particularly for guys on the other side of 30.......let's wait and see who the GM will be...whether it is Eppler or whoever, it may be awhile before the market comes in to focus...even if he isn't expensive, the GM may want to go all in for pitching....

[totdprods]

Semien, Gregorius, and Simmons make for a pretty decent SS class this year too, ahead of the upcoming mega-class.

I honestly could see the Angels wind up with any one of those three. Gregorius could give the Angels a little more offense and another left-handed bat. 

[Angel Oracle]

Semien didn’t do himself any favors, with the sub .700 OPS.

And, he’s only a year younger than Simba.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Semien, Gregorius, and Simmons make for a pretty decent SS class this year too, ahead of the upcoming mega-class.

I honestly could see the Angels wind up with any one of those three. Gregorius could give the Angels a little more offense and another left-handed bat. 

We let Simmons walk but we sign Semien or Gregorius?

[Vlad27Trout27]

A Rotation of

Bundy

Heaney

Canning 

Barria 

Is a solid 1-4. Bundy is pitching like an ace, for heaney the number's haven't looked great but he's been pitching like a 2/3. He has a war of 1.8, where Bundy is at 2 and Bauer is ar 2.1.  Canning really needs to take the next step, and if he's can't, he'll be more of that 3/4. Barria is solid 4/5. 

Personally i would rather us not spend 25 mil on one player, this teams needs allot more help than what a guy like Bauer can bring. Instead of spening 25 mil on one player, i would rather spread that around. 

Sign a guy like Richards, to a 2/3 yrs deal around 30-33 mil. 

Make a trade for a Bp arm 

Sign a guy like Ray to a one year deal or Kluber and hope for them to rebound.

Spend the left over on other holes on the team.

Utimalety, by spending that 25 mil on mutiple players, you make up the war and improve the other spots aswell. 

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

A Rotation of

Bundy

Heaney

Canning 

Barria 

Is a solid 1-4. Bundy is pitching like an ace, for heaney the number's haven't looked great but he's been pitching like a 2/3. He has a war of 1.8, where Bundy is at 2 and Bauer is ar 2.1.  Canning really needs to take the next step, and if he's can't, he'll be more of that 3/4. Barria is solid 4/5. 

Personally i would rather us not spend 25 mil on one player, this teams needs allot more help than what a guy like Bauer can bring. Instead of spening 25 mil on one player, i would rather spread that around. 

Sign a guy like Richards, to a 2/3 yrs deal around 30-33 mil. 

Make a trade for a Bp arm 

Sign a guy like Ray to a one year deal or Kluber and hope for them to rebound.

Spend the left over on other holes on the team.

Utimalety, by spending that 25 mil on mutiple players, you make up the war and improve the other spots aswell. 

I say we quit wasting money on guys who you "hope" turns it around.  We need one front end starter.  I think we should try to keep Simmons instead of gambling on a reclamation project.