Sandoval/Canning

[Torridd]

Would the more knowledgeable fans give me your take on these two? Do you think they will be successful? If so, how much rope should they be given to succeed? Thanks in advance.

[Vlad27Trout27]

I was thinking Sandoval moving onto the Bullpen to provide stability to it, at-least for this year. The rotation seems to be balanced out now and are doing well. Maybe moving Sandoval to the bullpen, can help it out. 

[Angels 1961]

Both are doing on the job training and I feel will be successful. Great this season they are getting starts in that will only help them down the road. Both have upside and are young and I feel will be part of rotation next year and beyond.

[totdprods]

24 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I was thinking Sandoval moving onto the Bullpen to provide stability to it, at-least for this year. The rotation seems to be balanced out now and are doing well. Maybe moving Sandoval to the bullpen, can help it out. 

I’ve thought for awhile now Sandoval could flourish in the pen. He has the stuff for it and I think in shorter outings it could tick up a bit too. He seems a little too prone to losing it emotionally or mechanically on the mound to sustain 5-6 innings with regularity. If he’s able to translate some of that stamina into multi-inning relief or a Shieldsian rubber arm, he’d compliment Pena nicely. 

Makes all the sense in the world to try and use him in the rotation, but if Barria, Canning, and perhaps Detmers can slot in behind Bundy, Heaney, a FA, maybe Ohtani, it could really help the pen if we had Sandoval and maybe Chris Rodriguez fast-tracked into the mix there. 

I can see Hector Yan being used similarly as well.

[Angel Oracle]

It sucks not having a minor league season.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I too see him as more of a reliever... the best version of this team probably has him getting big outs late in games.

Canning I'm still not sure about. His injury concerns are real and if he can avoid them he's going to have to learn to pitch better. His command isn't yet where it needs to be given his 'stuff' and his pitches lack that separation that keeps hitters honest.

[Vlad27Trout27]

2 hours ago, Torridd said:

Would the more knowledgeable fans give me your take on these two? Do you think they will be successful? If so, how much rope should they be given to succeed? Thanks in advance.

To answer your question. yes they can be successful. Canning has already shown us that he has the stuff to be in a rotation. His era should be under 4, but the big error (that somehow wasn't considered an error) cost him. But there is work that needs to be done, his command is awful at times and is one of the things that needs work. The other knock is his health, he has had arm issues, and than he's lost a 1.5 mph on his fastball, he removed one of his best pitches, the slider for a average to above averge cutter. pre arm issued canning, i would have said he had the stuff to be a 2/3, this canning i see him more of a 3. 

Sandavol, like totdprods said, with him it mental. AT time it gets to him, you can see from his emtions and even body langauge, which leads to bad mechanics for him. 

[Inside Pitch]

Young pitchers with the stuff to succeed.  They are still figuring MLB out, if anything they need to be protected from themselves and what goes on between their ears.

[ukyah]

18 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Young pitchers with the stuff to succeed.  They are still figuring MLB out, if anything they need to be protected from themselves and what goes on between their ears.

if only we had some kind of coach to help with that. 

has callaway done anything this season? maybe he has, maybe it would be that much worse without him.

[totdprods]

43 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I too see him as more of a reliever... the best version of this team probably has him getting big outs late in games.

Canning I'm still not sure about. His injury concerns are real and if he can avoid them he's going to have to learn to pitch better. His command isn't yet where it needs to be given his 'stuff' and his pitches lack that separation that keeps hitters honest.

I’m having intense Garrett Richards deja-vu from Canning, not necessarily in a production or talent comparison way, but rather that we’re entering a phase where we’re going to rely on the guy to be something year in, year out that he simply won’t be - and that he will be of more value to the Angels over the next couple of years in a trade than actually being on the roster. 

Canning, Adams/Marsh, and Rengifo/Jackson probably gets you one heck of a good SP in the offseason with a lot of talent, upside, control, and MLB-ready impact. Lamet? Castillo? Marquez? Plesac?

I’ll also always wonder what could have been if Eppler traded away Calhoun and Richards that first offseason. I understand fully why he didn’t, and I’m sure trading Trout’s two besties at that point in time would have been extremely risky for our long-term prospects of keeping him (in multiple ways) but I hope we don’t miss out on similar opportunities with Canning or Marsh’s trade values now.

Edited September 6, 2020 by totdprods

[Angel]

I feel like our future is going to be determined by how we produce talent, most notably pitching, having to sign or trade for every reliable pitcher will not be sustainable.  Simple, Occam's Razor.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, ukyah said:

if only we had some kind of coach to help with that. 

has callaway done anything this season? maybe he has, maybe it would be that much worse without him.

Bundy and Heaney can already vouch for Callaway.

Even Bud Black needed time to turn the pitching staff around by 2001-02.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, ukyah said:

if only we had some kind of coach to help with that. 

has callaway done anything this season? maybe he has, maybe it would be that much worse without him.

Rome wasn't built in a day, they are a work in progress.   Callaway has been fine, better than that -- he's been a huge improvement on White.... but he can't override the manager.

[Torridd]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

I’m having intense Garrett Richards deja-vu from Canning, not necessarily in a production or talent comparison way, but rather that we’re entering a phase where we’re going to rely on the guy to be something year in, year out that he simply won’t be - and that he will be of more value to the Angels over the next couple of years in a trade than actually being on the roster. 

Canning, Adams/Marsh, and Rengifo/Jackson probably gets you one heck of a good SP in the offseason with a lot of talent, upside, control, and MLB-ready impact. Lamet? Castillo? Marquez? Plesac?

I’ll also always wonder what could have been if Eppler traded away Calhoun and Richards that first offseason. I understand fully why he didn’t, and I’m sure trading Trout’s two besties at that point in time would have been extremely risky for our long-term prospects of keeping him (in multiple ways) but I hope we don’t miss out on similar opportunities with Canning or Marsh’s trade values now.

Do you think Canning can be as good as Richards? I still think it was a mistake that we didn't try to re-sign Garrett and the same for Shoemaker.

[Lou]

21 minutes ago, Torridd said:

Do you think Canning can be as good as Richards? I still think it was a mistake that we didn't try to re-sign Garrett and the same for Shoemaker.

Look at their numbers.  Canning is already better than Richards. SD signed  Richards 2/$15.5M knowing that the first year was a waste. There is no way I would have wanted him under those conditions.

Shoemaker has an ERA of 4.91 and hasn't pithed for 2 weeks due to a shoulder injury, after being out almost all of last year.

[totdprods]

30 minutes ago, Torridd said:

Do you think Canning can be as good as Richards? I still think it was a mistake that we didn't try to re-sign Garrett and the same for Shoemaker.

They did try to re-sign Richards. San Diego offered a better deal. Shoemaker was a bit of a mystery to me. He seemed cheap and at least able to eat innings. 

They’re too different for me to say one is better than the other. Different types of pitchers. But I see them as being in similar situations in terms of trade value.

[Lou]

6 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Shoemaker was a bit of a mystery to me. He seemed cheap and at least able to eat innings. 

It turns out he hasn't been very hungry.

[Docwaukee]

Sandoval is still one of the 5 youngest starters in MLB.   Put into action more out of necessity than him likely being ready.  

[Inside Pitch]

25 minutes ago, Lou said:

Look at their numbers.  Canning is already better than Richards. SD signed  Richards 2/$15.5M knowing that the first year was a waste. There is no way I would have wanted him under those conditions.

Shoemaker has an ERA of 4.91 and hasn't pithed for 2 weeks due to a shoulder injury, after being out almost all of last year.

Shoe has actually pitched worse than his ERA.   Dude has been really gopher prone this year.

[stormngt]

4 hours ago, Torridd said:

Do you think Canning can be as good as Richards? I still think it was a mistake that we didn't try to re-sign Garrett and the same for Shoemaker.

I think we did try to extend Richard's.  San Diego gave him a much better offer.

I agree with Shoemaker.   He was still under club control and cheaper.

[Jeff Fletcher]

I would remind you guys that Sandoval had Covid in June and didn’t really get the normal prep for this season. He had basically no “spring training.” He’s also 23.

I think he deserves a pass for this season. 

[Billy_Ball]

I like them both.  Canning reminds me of a young Trevor Bauer (pitching wise.)

[Warfarin]

In truth, the very good teams of the MLB tend to have guys like Sandoval, Canning, Suarez, etc as optionable depth who they recall to make starts throughout the season (and then option back).

I like their potential, but I do feel Canning was rushed (understandably so) and probably should have had some more time to develop in the minors.

I think in the future, all of those guys can probably be valuable backend type SPs, with Canning possibly serving as an SP3 type if he shows a bit more growth.

Looking at the rotation moving forward, with Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria, Sandoval/Suarez, Ohtani** .. I would say adding one significant SP, whether that's Bauer, Stroman, or even a Gausman/Odorizzi, should help out significantly, along with a healthy return to form from Ohtani.

[TroutCron]

If they taught a class on Pitching 101, the first principal would be commanding the fastball, without this success will be nearly impossible. This is the exact problem that Sandoval and Canning have. Until they can command the fastball they will have problems getting hitters out. I hope these two can grow into reliable starters but it starts with fastball command. 

[Angels 1961]

On 9/6/2020 at 12:31 PM, Inside Pitch said:

Rome wasn't built in a day, they are a work in progress.   Callaway has been fine, better than that -- he's been a huge improvement on White.... but he can't override the manager.

How long did it take to build Rome?