Billy Eppler's whiffs on acquiring starting pitching

[mmc]

Guys a pile of shit, best thing about this season is it'll result in him being gone.

[Torridd]

3 hours ago, stormngt said:

You post, although accurate is really unfair.  Eppler was handed a crapoy farm system and no budget room to sign quality players so he had to gamble on the famous "clean peanut" route.  When you are forced to take that strategy you will have far more failures than successes.

Pitchers like Lincecum, ans Harbey were gambles.

Pena, Ramirez, Nolasco and Chacin were not bad pickups considering the limited resources available to Eppler.

Then remember the injuries to Meyers and Ramirez.  True Meyers had injury issues in the past but again, remember the cost to acquire him and Epplers limited resources 

Sandavol and Canning is to be determined and Ohtani injury.

None of his moves reaches the level of disaster as Wells, Pujols, and Hamilton.   

I don't know if I agree with this. Is it more difficult to get good pitching than good hitting? Eppler was able to purchase good hitting. Why? Because that was his priority. When he tried to acquire good, but expensive,  pitchers he was often thwarted. Maybe it's bad luck, but that was his job.

[Lou]

27 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I don't know if I agree with this. Is it more difficult to get good pitching than good hitting? Eppler was able to purchase good hitting. Why? Because that was his priority. When he tried to acquire good, but expensive,  pitchers he was often thwarted. Maybe it's bad luck, but that was his job.

I think this supports the notion that it is, in fact, more difficult to obtain good pitching.

[tdawg87]

Or is it?

[AngelsLakersFan]

31 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Or is it?

Maybe.

[AngelsLakersFan]

31 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Or is it?

Maybe not?

[Angel Oracle]

It just seems ridiculous that in his 5th season, very few starters in the first 4 years even got to 140 innings for the season.   What’s wrong with this picture?

One can only blame a crappy farm in 2015 for so long.   That time has passed.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Torridd said:

I don't know if I agree with this. Is it more difficult to get good pitching than good hitting? Eppler was able to purchase good hitting. Why? Because that was his priority. When he tried to acquire good, but expensive,  pitchers he was often thwarted. Maybe it's bad luck, but that was his job.

In fairness what good hitting did he get other than Rendon?  And we only got him because we failed to get Cole.

[Lou]

31 minutes ago, stormngt said:

In fairness what good hitting did he get other than Rendon?  And we only got him because we failed to get Cole.

If we had signed Cole, would you be saying, "other than Cole, what other good pitching did we get?"

Rendon was a HUGE get.

[mmc]

Hey @Stradlinghow is it trolling to say the GM is shit?

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Hey @Stradlinghow is it trolling to say the GM is shit?

Saying he's done a shitty job isn't trolling.

Calling him a POS is. You're better than that. 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Hey @Stradlinghow is it trolling to say the GM is shit?

Referring to him as a pile of shit is trolling.  If you want to say he sucks at his job so be it.  Calling him a pile of shit is far from being objective.  You are welcome to disagree with me.  I don’t mind.

[Stradling]

I got merlincat’d by lou

[mmc]

8 minutes ago, Lou said:

Saying he's done a shitty job isn't trolling.

Calling him a POS is. You're better than that. 

 

7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Referring to him as a pile of shit is trolling.  If you want to say he sucks at his job so be it.  Calling him a pile of shit is far from being objective.  You are welcome to disagree with me.  I don’t mind.

I didn't mean that he was a shitty person, I meant he's a shitty GM.

[Stradling]

“Guys a pile of shit”

to me that sounds personal and not a judgement of how he does his job.

[Wisconsin27]

I've been reading this forum multiple times daily for the past few years, but rarely post.  I come here for information, insight, and enjoy the dialogue held by many of the regulars.

This particular thread really speaks to the overall perspective of many on the board.  We have people who love to use hindsight as a means by which to determine their perspective, but in the process lose track of all reality of the things that were in play when the moves were made.  So "FIre Eppler" is the obvious response because, somehow, someone else would have made the right decisions had they been in charge.  We also have many engaged posters who remember the circumstances that truly existed when said moves were made.  Those are the ones that I appreciate reading and the reason I come back to this site every morning, lunch break, and evening.

I can see Arte going either way on Eppler.  It's his choice and I'm not naive enough to wonder if what I think really matters.  That's on him.  And quite honestly, I won't blame him for either direction he chooses.  I'll still be a fan and following them daily.

What I get a kick out of is how folks are so eager to lay blame at Eppler's feet.  And quite honestly, to give him more props than he deserves for the ones he hits on.  He gets beat up for Cahill and Harvey.  Yet, do folks remember what was really available at 10 mil at the time of their signing?  He had a rotation to fill with a limited budget.  He took a chance on a guy with a decent past in terms of stability (Cahill) and a project.  He lost.  For one year, he lost.

This year, he's in the same situation.  He struck out on the expensive pitching for all the reasons stated here, which were almost entirely out of his control.  He went Rendon, which will pay dividends.  He again went for some career stability (Teheran) and a project (Bundy).  In an extremely small sample size, he's judged.  Yet, if this was a 162, I would wager Teheran would get closer to his career norms and Bundy would fall back closer to his.  We are over-reacting to both, imo, but what can't be lost is the cards he was dealt.  He had to do something (!) and went Rendon after the top pitches said no.  Even with hindsight, was he to avoid Rendon and wait for another day while Trout was in his prime?  This board would be on fire.

As many have stated, until this organization develops its own (which Covid certainly didn't help), it will be in trouble.  I really think the lack of development from guys like Heaney, Canning, Sandoval, etc. is what has hurt more than anything...outside of unfortunate injury luck (and inherited contracts) out of Eppler's control.  And yes, he can "own" Upton.  But to look back with hindsight and say he shoulda and coulda without context is an exercise in futility.

 

 

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, Wisconsin27 said:

I've been reading this forum multiple times daily for the past few years, but rarely post.  I come here for information, insight, and enjoy the dialogue held by many of the regulars.

This particular thread really speaks to the overall perspective of many on the board.  We have people who love to use hindsight as a means by which to determine their perspective, but in the process lose track of all reality of the things that were in play when the moves were made.  So "FIre Eppler" is the obvious response because, somehow, someone else would have made the right decisions had they been in charge.  We also have many engaged posters who remember the circumstances that truly existed when said moves were made.  Those are the ones that I appreciate reading and the reason I come back to this site every morning, lunch break, and evening.

I can see Arte going either way on Eppler.  It's his choice and I'm not naive enough to wonder if what I think really matters.  That's on him.  And quite honestly, I won't blame him for either direction he chooses.  I'll still be a fan and following them daily.

What I get a kick out of is how folks are so eager to lay blame at Eppler's feet.  And quite honestly, to give him more props than he deserves for the ones he hits on.  He gets beat up for Cahill and Harvey.  Yet, do folks remember what was really available at 10 mil at the time of their signing?  He had a rotation to fill with a limited budget.  He took a chance on a guy with a decent past in terms of stability (Cahill) and a project.  He lost.  For one year, he lost.

This year, he's in the same situation.  He struck out on the expensive pitching for all the reasons stated here, which were almost entirely out of his control.  He went Rendon, which will pay dividends.  He again went for some career stability (Teheran) and a project (Bundy).  In an extremely small sample size, he's judged.  Yet, if this was a 162, I would wager Teheran would get closer to his career norms and Bundy would fall back closer to his.  We are over-reacting to both, imo, but what can't be lost is the cards he was dealt.  He had to do something (!) and went Rendon after the top pitches said no.  Even with hindsight, was he to avoid Rendon and wait for another day while Trout was in his prime?  This board would be on fire.

As many have stated, until this organization develops its own (which Covid certainly didn't help), it will be in trouble.  I really think the lack of development from guys like Heaney, Canning, Sandoval, etc. is what has hurt more than anything...outside of unfortunate injury luck (and inherited contracts) out of Eppler's control.  And yes, he can "own" Upton.  But to look back with hindsight and say he shoulda and coulda without context is an exercise in futility.

 

 

Hi.

 

You should post more. 

[failos]

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Wisconsin27 said:

I've been reading this forum multiple times daily for the past few years, but rarely post.  I come here for information, insight, and enjoy the dialogue held by many of the regulars.

This particular thread really speaks to the overall perspective of many on the board.  We have people who love to use hindsight as a means by which to determine their perspective, but in the process lose track of all reality of the things that were in play when the moves were made.  So "FIre Eppler" is the obvious response because, somehow, someone else would have made the right decisions had they been in charge.  We also have many engaged posters who remember the circumstances that truly existed when said moves were made.  Those are the ones that I appreciate reading and the reason I come back to this site every morning, lunch break, and evening.

I can see Arte going either way on Eppler.  It's his choice and I'm not naive enough to wonder if what I think really matters.  That's on him.  And quite honestly, I won't blame him for either direction he chooses.  I'll still be a fan and following them daily.

What I get a kick out of is how folks are so eager to lay blame at Eppler's feet.  And quite honestly, to give him more props than he deserves for the ones he hits on.  He gets beat up for Cahill and Harvey.  Yet, do folks remember what was really available at 10 mil at the time of their signing?  He had a rotation to fill with a limited budget.  He took a chance on a guy with a decent past in terms of stability (Cahill) and a project.  He lost.  For one year, he lost.

This year, he's in the same situation.  He struck out on the expensive pitching for all the reasons stated here, which were almost entirely out of his control.  He went Rendon, which will pay dividends.  He again went for some career stability (Teheran) and a project (Bundy).  In an extremely small sample size, he's judged.  Yet, if this was a 162, I would wager Teheran would get closer to his career norms and Bundy would fall back closer to his.  We are over-reacting to both, imo, but what can't be lost is the cards he was dealt.  He had to do something (!) and went Rendon after the top pitches said no.  Even with hindsight, was he to avoid Rendon and wait for another day while Trout was in his prime?  This board would be on fire.

As many have stated, until this organization develops its own (which Covid certainly didn't help), it will be in trouble.  I really think the lack of development from guys like Heaney, Canning, Sandoval, etc. is what has hurt more than anything...outside of unfortunate injury luck (and inherited contracts) out of Eppler's control.  And yes, he can "own" Upton.  But to look back with hindsight and say he shoulda and coulda without context is an exercise in futility.

 

 

Yea you are a stud and need to be more present.  We need more common sense and well thought out opinions.  Thanks for the post. 

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

Hi.

 

You should post more. 

Yea no shit. 

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

If we had signed Cole, would you be saying, "other than Cole, what other good pitching did we get?"

Rendon was a HUGE get.

I am not debating that.  My point is Eppler hasn't got us much offensively either through free agent without the exception of Rendon.  

[Wisconsin27]

 

Game 6, I did that intentionally due in large part because I don't come to the forum to draw lines in the sand and argue my position to the point of getting personal with fellow Angel fans.  Enough people do that here already.  Instead, I tend to enjoy the varying perspectives and the rationale behind them (though I really come here for information more than anything).

As I stated earlier, I don't pretend my opinion matters and quite honestly, don't have nearly enough insight to take a comfortable stand either way.  For example, I have no idea what has/hasn't been done behind the scenes with the scouting department (international or otherwise), the competency level of those layered within the organization, what kind of owner Arte is when the door is shut, etc.  I only know the circumstances Eppler inherited (quite honestly one of the worst situations in pro sports during my 40 years of following the Angels) and have very rarely not understood the rationale behind his decisions (though I didn't understand his first trade at all, but he was totally right).

I also admit to being more patient than many in our society today.  I also think we have to remember that with a new GM will come significant change at every level of the organization.....philosophy, minors, eventually coach (I know), player value, etc.  To me, this means a 3+ year re-tool during Mike's final prime years.  I would have to be damn sure I had the right guy this time. I also understand this is the very reason so many frustrated fans want him out....they are ready for wholesale change.

In the end, I would be reluctant to fire him this year for a number of reasons that the anti-Billy folks will view as excuses.  There is something really interesting and ironic that when the use of hindsight is viewed as a reason to keep a GM, it's excuse making.  But when hindsight without context is used to argue for a termination, it's fact finding.

Anyway, among those things to consider....admittedly given the advantage of hindsight on the season to-date....

*Covid.  I mean, the whole thing.

*Skaggs.  If you have ever worked closely with someone in your organization that has passed, you know that doesn't just "go away" after a couple of months.  That process can't be rushed and it sucks.

*Mike- Slowest start to his career.  Not on Eppler.

*Rendon- Takes over 1/6 of the season to adjust to the AL/Angels.  Not on Eppler.

*Ohtani- Eppler should never have "counted" on him.  That said, I'm not sure he really did as I don't recall a bunch of good arms without question marks behind them being available that fit Billy's budget.  Instead, I think Eppler tried to build some semblance of an 8-9 deep rotation and rolled out what he had.  What could or would he had done differently if he somehow knew Ohtani was going to be out early?  My guess is there is nothing he could have done.  Similar to Canning, who has had the good fortune to-date of being able to avoid further injury issues.

- As a hitter, his performance is not on Eppler.  

*Upton- Could have and perhaps should have seen this coming.  But I don't think anyone would have projected him to be THIS bad.  Furthermore, this isn't something to be evaluated "this year" anyway.  Eppler messed this up at resigning (again, using hindsight).  Even IF Eppler knew Upton would hit under .200 in the first 30+ games, he would not have done nothing different as he didn't have the money to put into another OF'er with Goodwin serviceable and Adell/Marsh on the way.  The extension is solely on Billy, but this level of poor performance is on Upton.

*Young pitchers not developing at the rate we'd like.  One could argue this is on Billy as he is overvaluing his own and that may be the truth.  He did bring in a new pitching coach, so I guess we'll see the final results shortly.

Game 6, I think I keep him around if I'm Arte.  I just don't think I put the blame of so many players underperforming in a weird year on the GM.  It's not to say I don't get it if he goes a different direction, but with what I know, he would stay.

 

Respectfully,

Wisconsin27

 

 

 

[Lou]

5 minutes ago, Wisconsin27 said:

 

Game 6, I did that intentionally due in large part because I don't come to the forum to draw lines in the sand and argue my position to the point of getting personal with fellow Angel fans.  Enough people do that here already.  Instead, I tend to enjoy the varying perspectives and the rationale behind them (though I really come here for information more than anything).

As I stated earlier, I don't pretend my opinion matters and quite honestly, don't have nearly enough insight to take a comfortable stand either way.  For example, I have no idea what has/hasn't been done behind the scenes with the scouting department (international or otherwise), the competency level of those layered within the organization, what kind of owner Arte is when the door is shut, etc.  I only know the circumstances Eppler inherited (quite honestly one of the worst situations in pro sports during my 40 years of following the Angels) and have very rarely not understood the rationale behind his decisions (though I didn't understand his first trade at all, but he was totally right).

I also admit to being more patient than many in our society today.  I also think we have to remember that with a new GM will come significant change at every level of the organization.....philosophy, minors, eventually coach (I know), player value, etc.  To me, this means a 3+ year re-tool during Mike's final prime years.  I would have to be damn sure I had the right guy this time. I also understand this is the very reason so many frustrated fans want him out....they are ready for wholesale change.

In the end, I would be reluctant to fire him this year for a number of reasons that the anti-Billy folks will view as excuses.  There is something really interesting and ironic that when the use of hindsight is viewed as a reason to keep a GM, it's excuse making.  But when hindsight without context is used to argue for a termination, it's fact finding.

Anyway, among those things to consider....admittedly given the advantage of hindsight on the season to-date....

*Covid.  I mean, the whole thing.

*Skaggs.  If you have ever worked closely with someone in your organization that has passed, you know that doesn't just "go away" after a couple of months.  That process can't be rushed and it sucks.

*Mike- Slowest start to his career.  Not on Eppler.

*Rendon- Takes over 1/6 of the season to adjust to the AL/Angels.  Not on Eppler.

*Ohtani- Eppler should never have "counted" on him.  That said, I'm not sure he really did as I don't recall a bunch of good arms without question marks behind them being available that fit Billy's budget.  Instead, I think Eppler tried to build some semblance of an 8-9 deep rotation and rolled out what he had.  What could or would he had done differently if he somehow knew Ohtani was going to be out early?  My guess is there is nothing he could have done.  Similar to Canning, who has had the good fortune to-date of being able to avoid further injury issues.

- As a hitter, his performance is not on Eppler.  

*Upton- Could have and perhaps should have seen this coming.  But I don't think anyone would have projected him to be THIS bad.  Furthermore, this isn't something to be evaluated "this year" anyway.  Eppler messed this up at resigning (again, using hindsight).  Even IF Eppler knew Upton would hit under .200 in the first 30+ games, he would not have done nothing different as he didn't have the money to put into another OF'er with Goodwin serviceable and Adell/Marsh on the way.  The extension is solely on Billy, but this level of poor performance is on Upton.

*Young pitchers not developing at the rate we'd like.  One could argue this is on Billy as he is overvaluing his own and that may be the truth.  He did bring in a new pitching coach, so I guess we'll see the final results shortly.

Game 6, I think I keep him around if I'm Arte.  I just don't think I put the blame of so many players underperforming in a weird year on the GM.  It's not to say I don't get it if he goes a different direction, but with what I know, he would stay.

 

Respectfully,

Wisconsin27

 

 

 

Hi.

You should post more.

[Lou]

21 hours ago, stormngt said:

I am not debating that.  My point is Eppler hasn't got us much offensively either through free agent without the exception of Rendon.  

And if he had signed Cole, would you be saying the same thing about the pitching? 

[stormngt]

On 9/3/2020 at 3:49 PM, Lou said:

And if he had signed Cole, would you be saying the same thing about the pitching? 

No.  Because he has gotten us Bundy Canning, Cole, Ranirez, Pena, Robles (he got is one good year), Pettit (mistake was letting him go, Barria (one good year so far), and Parker Bridwell who gave us one good year.

Eppler has been ok on pitching except he hasn't gotten us an Ace.  He has had horrible injury luck and no budget to replace one.

I am not as critical on Eppler.  I wouldnt mind giving him one more year.  However he deserves of criticism for not improving the team in five years.  In fact the team has regressed.

Edited September 22, 2020 by stormngt