Jump to content
  • Welcome to AngelsWin.com

    AngelsWin.com - THE Internet Home for Angels fans! Unraveling Angels Baseball ... One Thread at a Time.

    Register today to join the most interactive online Angels community on the net!

    Once you're a member you'll see less advertisements. Become a Premium member and you won't see any ads! 

     

IGNORED

Is Trout clutch or not?


Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

No

Bull.  Clutch is those nerves you feel.  I'm not clutch, had no feel for the ball at the free throw line when it mattered, my golf partners won't give me a 1 foot putt under pressure because they've seen what happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I absolutely reject that isolating stats in these contrived categories like “close and late” or “high leverage 7th inning or later” can possibly give anyone an idea of is a player is “clutch.”

A player hits a grand slam in the 1st inning to put his team up 4-3.  He hits another grand slam in the 4th inning to again pull ahead 8-7.

But in the 8th inning still up 8-7 they strike out with the bases loaded.

I guess this guy isn’t “clutch”?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, oldguy said:

He has the worst clutch numbers in MLB year after year.  I know, I know ...but when you watch him, he just isn't clutch.  Perhaps I expect too much since he's Trout.  But it seems like he does all his damage in the early innings.  Also, in his one playoff series, he performed horribly.  There's just something about that look in his eyes...it doesn't say "killer-instinct".  

I also think he's very aware.  Under pressure, I think you want the player who is a little too dense to understand the gravity of the situation.  The Lenny Dykstra types.

Honestly, I no longer expect anything of him in clutch situations.

I no longer expect anything of Pujols, Upton, and our bullpen in any situations.

 

Link?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, JustATroutFan said:

There's two sides of this. Trout, to me, is clutch but he's not the best at being clutch. His career slash line in high leverage situations is actually excellent. But it feels like he doesn't get that big hit late in a close game. Of course, he's been walked a lot late in games, so that doesn't help his cause. And then there are those who will just nit pick and say that Trout isn't clutch because of this and that. Might even bring up his fluky postseason numbers that's a small sample size. 12 at bats, who gives! 

You do understand that:

1.  Mike Trout often faces the best pitchers a team can offer in"clutch" situations

2.  Statistically, failure is a much more probable outcome than success for every hitter who ever played major league. 

I would talk more about it but there is someone who posts who is an authority on the psyche of a major league player and the nuances of the game.  If I remember his name, I will post it so you have a reliable source of authentic information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

I absolutely reject that isolating stats in these contrived categories like “close and late” or “high leverage 7th inning or later” can possibly give anyone an idea of is a player is “clutch.”

A player hits a grand slam in the 1st inning to put his team up 4-3.  He hits another grand slam in the 4th inning to again pull ahead 8-7.

But in the 8th inning still up 8-7 they strike out with the bases loaded.

I guess this guy isn’t “clutch”?

Then WPA is what you’re looking for. 
 

That’s the first list I posted. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oldguy said:

Bull.  Clutch is those nerves you feel.  I'm not clutch, had no feel for the ball at the free throw line when it mattered, my golf partners won't give me a 1 foot putt under pressure because they've seen what happens.

 

3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That’d why you aren’t a pro athlete. 

Winter Olympics Applause GIF by SB Nation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oldguy said:

image.thumb.png.24d92185985d84c2a6f3dad599112a85.png

you should read about how that stat actually works.   

Remember David Ortiz, who some regard as one of the most 'clutch' players in history?  His cumulative number is -1.16

check out the all time leader board for guys worse than Trout.  Names like Sosa, Schmidt, Thome, Bonds, Arod, Beltre, Hunter, Frank Thomas, Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Griffey Jr.  

I already explained it in an earlier post but I'll give you another hint.  look below

 

Just now, Jeff Fletcher said:

That’d why you aren’t a pro athlete. 

and in both of the sports he mentioned, the player with the opportunity gets to control the ball.  

in baseball, someone else gets to decide what happens with the ball in those 'clutch' situations.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is how FanGraphs defines “clutch.” If you read it, you see that it compares a player to himself, so in order for Trout to be considered clutch he’d have to rise above being the best player in the world when the game is on the line. 
 

It also says it’s “not predictive.” That means it’s not a skill. Just like flipping a coin tails three times in a row doesn’t mean you’re any more likely to get tails the next time. 
 

 

4E976C24-7DD7-41DC-A748-F2A7435AA65D.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here is how FanGraphs defines “clutch.” If you read it, you see that it compares a player to himself, so in order for Trout to be considered clutch he’d have to rise above being the best player in the world when the game is on the line. 
 

It also says it’s “not predictive.” That means it’s not a skill. Just like flipping a coin tails three times in a row doesn’t mean you’re any more likely to get tails the next time. 
 

 

4E976C24-7DD7-41DC-A748-F2A7435AA65D.jpeg

don't help him out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

No

I disagree and I am suprised as a sports writer you think there isn't such a thing as clutch.  People respond to pressure situations differently.  Some let the nerves get to them and some thrives.  Those who are clutch focuses more in pressure situation and thrives from it.

Problem is you really can't prove it exist.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, stormngt said:

I disagree and I am suprised as a sports writer you think there isn't such a thing as clutch.  People respond to pressure situations differently.  Some let the nerves get to them and some thrives.  Those who are clutch focuses more in pressure situation and thrives from it.

Problem is you really can't prove it exist.  

I think there may be players who perform worse in the clutch but I think for the most part those guys get weeded out long before they get to the majors.
 

In order for a player to perform better, you’re basically suggesting that he’s not performing at the fullest of his ability in normal situations. And I don’t buy that you get to the major leagues if you aren’t doing that. 
 

I was always struck by something Jeff Kent said whenever he heard players talk about “stepping up.” He said that’s BS and you need to be “stepped up all the way up” all the time or you shouldn’t be there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

don't help him out.  

Then use your eyes.  Here's an example (anecdotal).  DeCinces was not clutch.  Who was it that popped out in extra innings with less than two outs and a runner (the winning run) on third in Game 5, 1986 vs. Boston?  How did you feel when Benjie came up in the clutch (even when he was with the Giants)?  I always felt he was going to put solid wood on the ball (and he did).  How did you feel last night when Trout came up in the bottom of the 8th?  We are all experienced fans.  We know clutch when we see it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That’d why you aren’t a pro athlete. 

Ha!  If I was the most clutch, "feel no pressure" individual in the history of sports, I still wouldn't be a pro athlete (neither would you).  But I WOULD win more of my $3 golf bets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, oldguy said:

Then use your eyes.  Here's an example (anecdotal).  DeCinces was not clutch.  Who was it that popped out in extra innings with less than two outs and a runner (the winning run) on third in Game 5, 1986 vs. Boston?  How did you feel when Benjie came up in the clutch (even when he was with the Giants)?  I always felt he was going to put solid wood on the ball (and he did).  How did you feel last night when Trout came up in the bottom of the 8th?  We are all experienced fans.  We know clutch when we see it.

Oh, and Moose Stubing was not a "clutch" third-base coach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, oldguy said:

Then use your eyes.  Here's an example (anecdotal).  DeCinces was not clutch.  Who was it that popped out in extra innings with less than two outs and a runner (the winning run) on third in Game 5, 1986 vs. Boston?  How did you feel when Benjie came up in the clutch (even when he was with the Giants)?  I always felt he was going to put solid wood on the ball (and he did).  How did you feel last night when Trout came up in the bottom of the 8th?  We are all experienced fans.  We know clutch when we see it.

Does this mean that professional gamblers are more clutch than the average person who losses money regularly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, oldguy said:

Ha!  If I was the most clutch, "feel no pressure" individual in the history of sports, I still wouldn't be a pro athlete (neither would you).  But I WOULD win more of my $3 golf bets.

As long as your wife is happy with your "clutchness"........nothing else matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me try this another way...

At lower levels of competition, I am sure there are guys who get nervous and perform worse or concentrate more and perform better. But as you rise up the ladder, you realize that it's harder and harder to perform, period. You realize that if you can't be at or near 100 percent of your ability all the time, you are not going to stay in the major leagues.

There are a lot more "non clutch" spots than clutch spots, and if you go up to the plate at 90 percent focus in those spots, you're going to get embarrassed and won't be in the big leagues to get enough chances for you to demonstrate your great clutch "skill."

This is my opinion based on many years of hearing players asked questions about how they "tried harder" or something at a certain situation, only to hear them say: "Dude, I am trying as hard as I can every time."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...