Which of the following is responsible for 2010 and beyond failures?

[floplag]

Im truly struggling to find an answer to this one...

Arte Moreno, nah hes done his part and openened the checkbook.  I would have liked to have seen him do it a little sooner but i cant fault him.,

Tony J. Pierrepont Reagins - nah, it isnt like it been any better under anyone else.

Jerry Dumbpoto - too far removed, not even a considering at this point. 

Billy Eppler - no i think hes done what he could within what he had to work with.

Scouting - not really im mean when your not picking in the top 10 its a crapshot in general, there arent 30 guys in any years draft that are going to be stars. 

Development - no these guys have done well in the minors, and faltered once they hut the show, hard to put that on dev. 

I really cant put my finer on the why at this point.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, eligrba said:

Thread should be locked.  This is the best synopsis explaining the current situation. 

This is probably the 4th time I’ve written some version of this post. But people forget. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

12 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The No 1 reason is the farm system deteriorated.

That’s Dipoto’s fault for drafting low ceiling guys and it’s Arte’s fault for preferring big FA deals that also cost them draft picks. And of course all the scouting and development people who contributed also get some blame. 
 

No 2 is the Angels decision to try to rebuild that farm system slowly rather than tanking.
 

Why did they go that route? Well, Arte doesn’t want to tank because he doesn’t want the team to suck. It’s also, ironically, a bit of bad luck in the fact that the Angels have Mike Trout. If you have just a “garden variety” star it’s not so hard to trade him for 4-5 prospects and rebuild. If you have a HOFer, generational talent, you can’t trade him. You have to try to win with him. But If you don’t have a farm system..... 
 

You don’t produce talent for your team and you don’t have talent to trade to fill holes. Instead of plugging one hole with a $30M star, you have to plug four holes with four $8M players and that’s dicey. The guys who are cheaper and/or trade accessible also get hurt more. 
 

And here they are. 

I left out a reason for No 1

They were consistently good from 02-12, which meant they drafted low from 03-13. 
 

The outlier to that was 04, when the WS hangover of 03 got them the 12th pick (Jered Weaver).

And of course they got super lucky in the 09 draft that 23 teams were asleep. 

[CanadianHalo]

You forgot Stradling, my vote is for him!

[CanadianHalo]

And Eppler, of course!

[CanadianHalo]

12 hours ago, mymerlincat said:

Also a lot of it is just the losing culture our organization allows and the low standards and accountability people seem to held to. This goes everywhere from the ownership, the GM and the front office, the managers and coaches, and the players.  It is not right that everyone should suck immediately when they come here.  Everyone around needs to hold both themselves and each other to a higher standard no matter what their role is in regards to this team.  I guess this mostly goes under Moreno because ultimately he sets the standard.

I’d switch up some words like “allows“ for example. There definitely appears to be some issues that run much deeper than the surface level with this organization in terms of the ‘how to’ part in running a successful organization. 
 

[beatlesrule]

Moreno would fire sale or tank even when it's clearly the right thing to do. Scouts are pretty bad. Eppler is way overrated here. Arte is the owner so he's ultimately responsible.

[Angel Oracle]

3 hours ago, stormngt said:

If not mistaken Clevenger was a low rated prospect

Which would seem to point to the development part of the formula?

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I left out a reason for No 1

They were consistently good from 02-12, which meant they drafted low from 03-13. 
 

The outlier to that was 04, when the WS hangover of 03 got them the 12th pick (Jered Weaver).

And of course they got super lucky in the 09 draft that 23 teams were asleep. 

This is a good point.   But, how then have teams like the Dodgers and Cardinals done well for many years despite having lower first round and second round picks normally?   Scouting and development difference from the Halos?

Edited August 10, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Jeff Fletcher]

21 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

This is a good point.   But, how then have teams like the Dodgers and Cardinals done well for many years despite having lower first round and second round picks normally?   Scouting and development difference from the Halos?

It’s possible but it’s a lot harder. Also you can supplement it with international signings, which have nothing to do with the standings. But I think it’s more common to have your farm system deteriorate as you as constantly good at the major league level. Besides the draft, you’re also more likely to be a trade buyer, which reduces your prospect volume 

[Angel Oracle]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s possible but it’s a lot harder. Also you can supplement it with international signings, which have nothing to do with the standings. But I think it’s more common to have your farm system deteriorate as you as constantly good at the major league level. Besides the draft, you’re also more likely to be a trade buyer, which reduces your prospect volume 

The Cardinals have rarely signed FAs that require a draft pick to be given up.    That is likely a factor for them.  

[Angel Oracle]

Now I wonder if Clay Daniels should have been one of the choices.    What he did to screw up the Halos connection to Latin America no doubt also played a part.   

[Puget Sound Angel]

Arte's been the one constant.

[mmc]

7 hours ago, Stradling said:

This is a crock of shit.  It’s 100% fan nonsense. 

Can you explain why exactly you think this is BS?  

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

The Cardinals have rarely signed FAs that require a draft pick to be given up.    That is likely a factor for them.  

They also get free picks and the additional bonus money for being "small market".

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, stormngt said:

If not mistaken Clevenger was a low rated prospect

Clevinger was drafted as a 19 year old (throwing 98) in the 4th round then had TJ surgery.   He was still working his way back from that when the smartest man in the room traded him for a RP.   I dont recall if he ever got a chance to be ranked but he wasn't lowly thought of.

He was let go because the guy that thought Baldoquin was a few at bats from being MLB ready had a hard on for Mark Sappington and Austin Adams

[Angel Oracle]

Added Clay Daniels, in case you wanted to vote for him.

[Stradling]

On 8/9/2020 at 11:03 PM, mymerlincat said:

Also a lot of it is just the losing culture our organization allows and the low standards and accountability people seem to held to. This goes everywhere from the ownership, the GM and the front office, the managers and coaches, and the players.  It is not right that everyone should suck immediately when they come here.  Everyone around needs to hold both themselves and each other to a higher standard no matter what their role is in regards to this team.  I guess this mostly goes under Moreno because ultimately he sets the standard.

 

23 hours ago, Stradling said:

This is a crock of shit.  It’s 100% fan nonsense. 

Ok it’s a crock because what’s the alternative?  We have no idea what the accountability is?  We’re on our third manager in three years.   Arte wasn’t happy with Reagins so he didn’t finish out his contract.  If players come here and don’t perform, if they have no replacement then what?  How do you hold them accountable in a way the needy fans can see?  Also it isn’t like Arte or the GMs haven’t released players or replaced them.  GMjr replaced by Hunter, later traded and Arte are the contract, Appier, ate the contract, Wells traded/ate, Hamilton traded ate, Harvey ate, Burnett ate, Blanton ate.  This year Robles out as closer, Upton playing three times a week batting 7th.  If you think GMs should be fired all William Nilly that’s fine but it’s a good way of not being competitive on the field or in your ability to attract another quality GM. This is why the “losing culture” is dumb.  This isn’t basketball where one player changes a franchise, it’s a sport where the top pick in the draft is THREE years away from being an impact player, if you are lucky. 

[jonickell25]

21 hours ago, stormngt said:

If not mistaken Clevenger was a low rated prospect

I remember everyone on here being livid about that trade. He wasn't low rated in our system.

[Dtwncbad]

I think the complaint that “big free agent” deals was a big contributor to the Angels having a poor farm system is way overplayed.

The Angels have had a couple of big free agent deals, not many.  It FEELS lousy because the Pujols contract from almost a decade ago still lingers, and the Hamilton contract was a complete disaster.

Free agency absolutely did not prevent the Angels from having enough draft picks to have a decent farm system.

They just made some really lousy picks and have not well developed some of the players they did pick.

I would put the number of free agent signings pretty close to the bottom of reason the Angels farms system sucked.

[nate]

On 8/10/2020 at 12:32 AM, Jeff Fletcher said:

The No 1 reason is the farm system deteriorated.

That’s Dipoto’s fault for drafting low ceiling guys and it’s Arte’s fault for preferring big FA deals that also cost them draft picks. And of course all the scouting and development people who contributed also get some blame. 
 

No 2 is the Angels decision to try to rebuild that farm system slowly rather than tanking.
 

Why did they go that route? Well, Arte doesn’t want to tank because he doesn’t want the team to suck. It’s also, ironically, a bit of bad luck in the fact that the Angels have Mike Trout. If you have just a “garden variety” star it’s not so hard to trade him for 4-5 prospects and rebuild. If you have a HOFer, generational talent, you can’t trade him. You have to try to win with him. But If you don’t have a farm system..... 
 

You don’t produce talent for your team and you don’t have talent to trade to fill holes. Instead of plugging one hole with a $30M star, you have to plug four holes with four $8M players and that’s dicey. The guys who are cheaper and/or trade accessible also get hurt more. 
 

And here they are. 

Completely agree with this although I also think the trading away the farm started with Reagins and got worse with Dipoto.

Keeping Scioscia past his expiration date as well.

[m0nkey]

Vinnie Pestano's ERA with the Angels the year he got traded here: 0.93

 

Clevinger's career ERA: 3.20

 

Thanks Dipoto!

[Taylor]

Losing Jean Segura

[Inside Pitch]

17 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Added Clay Daniels, in case you wanted to vote for him.

The Clay Daniel thing doesn't get enough attention when the blame train shows up.   Having that go down in 2009 ahead of the Jerry Dipoto draft era essentially destroyed the farm system and set the organization back a great ways.   There was a solid 5-6 years (2009-2014), where very little of value was added internationally..   The cheapest most easily obtainable talent on the planet and the Angels were almost completely absent.   

That was a franchise breaker.

[stormngt]

3 hours ago, jonickell25 said:

I remember everyone on here being livid about that trade. He wasn't low rated in our system.

He wasn't rated high.