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Angels 1961

How many MLB players will opt out for 2020

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6 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

I stand by my comments, @Stradling. I don't get the "Come on Chuck you are better than this" comment either. 

Let me elaborate. 

I've always been raised that whenever you have a problem with a family member, friend or co-worker, you go to that person in private or in some rare cases publicly and address it. Today, there's been an attack on masculinity so it doesn't surprise me that men aren't grown-ups or real men anymore, so they take to social media or the media outlets to blast you or to file their complaints, when they had a chance to address them to the perpetrators as they happened. 

Again, I'm guessing he's laughed at and/or said gay and racial jokes in the past but now that the in-thing is to take to social media to claim that the World is racist and homophobic it comes across as disingenuous. 

You can stand by the comments, that is your prerogative.  I’m not attacking you, but the bottom line is if the clubhouse is racist they should be called out for it.  Because he didn’t do it before it became fashionable doesn’t mean anything.  It would be like blaming a rape victim for not coming out before other women come out about a sexual predator. We also have no idea if he has addressed this privately.  If we have learned anything from this it is that peaceful, respectful conversations really haven’t moved the needle in the past.  Also this isn’t an attack on masculinity it is an attack on assholes.  Much different.  

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8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

You can stand by the comments, that is your prerogative.  I’m not attacking you, but the bottom line is if the clubhouse is racist they should be called out for it.  Because he didn’t do it before it became fashionable doesn’t mean anything.  It would be like blaming a rape victim for not coming out before other women come out about a sexual predator. We also have no idea if he has addressed this privately.  If we have learned anything from this it is that peaceful, respectful conversations really haven’t moved the needle in the past.  Also this isn’t an attack on masculinity it is an attack on assholes.  Much different.  

And I agree, if you're an asshole you should be addressed. I know that I respect my family and friends when they call me out in private on something that I did or said because they care about the relationship and the overall environment we're all in together.

I just don't like the timing of this as he sits out the season and takes to Instagram with his complaints. 

It's kind of like Mike Fiers. He had a chance to address the team about cheating when he was on the Astros, but he didn't do it until he moved on to another team. 

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9 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Dumbest argument ever 8% black players in the league. Like anyone cares that the NBA and Football are 90% black. If you’re good enough you’ll make it. Black athletes are playing those sports at higher frequency than baseball. It’s quicker to get to the pros you don’t have to jump through 15 minor league stops to get there. I hate this argument so much if you can’t tell. 

Yeah i for one get sick of this argument.... the reason there are not more African Americans  in baseball is choice, as in theirs.
The NFL and NBA are much faster paths to the money.
Plus I hear literally no one caring about the ratios in other sports which dont fit their narrative.
It takes more people and equipment to play organized football than it does baseball, yet they find a way.
This argument simply fails to hold water on any level.
Locker room issue, whole other matter, thats not excusable, but the whole why arent there more African Americans in MLB thing, sorry, not buying. 

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1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

The question is should locker room banter be publicized? Of course there’s shit talking bad jokes and comments about women. They’re 20 something year old guys who for the most part are hooking up with chicks in all different cities. I had a friend in college who had her apartment paid for by ARod for a year plus while he was playing for the Yankees. This shit isn’t news it’s just idiotic to go run to the press about it. I don’t know just my two cents. 

And I’m assuming if you and I understand there’s lock room banter then Desmond does as well.  He is addressing things that go beyond that.  His thoughts are well articulated, so he is smart enough to differentiate between normal banter and crossing the line. 

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14 minutes ago, Stradling said:

And I’m assuming if you and I understand there’s lock room banter then Desmond does as well.  He is addressing things that go beyond that.  His thoughts are well articulated, so he is smart enough to differentiate between normal banter and crossing the line. 

One thing i think is obvious today, one persons crossing the line isnt necessarily the same as anothers.
IF he had a problem with what someone else was saying, he should have spoken to them.  Maybe he has I dont know but outing his organization isnt going to win him any friends.  Maybe he did and got no where i dont know, but simple assuming that his version of this is what the reality is, im not giving anyone that much credit these days.  Too many agendas, too many reasons for not being completely truthful.
An MLB locker room has long been a place of many issues, we all know that, painfully so, and i have no issue with him opting out of COVID but adding in the political statement wasnt necessary, he chose to do that.  Only he knows why, and only those in that room know if its truthful. 

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31 minutes ago, floplag said:

Yeah i for one get sick of this argument.... the reason there are not more African Americans  in baseball is choice, as in theirs.
The NFL and NBA are much faster paths to the money.
Plus I hear literally no one caring about the ratios in other sports which dont fit their narrative.
It takes more people and equipment to play organized football than it does baseball, yet they find a way.
This argument simply fails to hold water on any level.
Locker room issue, whole other matter, thats not excusable, but the whole why arent there more African Americans in MLB thing, sorry, not buying. 

It's not just equipment, it's expensive travel teams and showcases. Baseball is incredibly more expensive than basketball and football. Plus you are acting like "it's a quicker path to money" is something that can't be changed. If baseball wanted to increase how quickly people made money they could increase minor league pay to a living wage and increase the amount players are paid while under club control. It's like when companies offer unpaid internships, only well off kids can do it. Additionally, colleges often don't give full scholarships for baseball like they do for basketball and football. Is it the owners' fault that white people in this county have built up a huge wealth advantage through racist laws during the first 200 years of this country's existence? No. But could they do things to increase black participation in baseball if they wanted. This is what structural racism is. No one has to be racist for negative outcomes to effect one group more than another because when the system was set up, it was racist. 

Yeah, Latin American players can do it, but that's because the cost of living there is so damn cheap. And if you don't think the system is bad for Latin American players, then please read about what goes on with the amateur talent over there.

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1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

And I agree, if you're an asshole you should be addressed. I know that I respect my family and friends when they call me out in private on something that I did or said because they care about the relationship and the overall environment we're all in together.

I just don't like the timing of this as he sits out the season and takes to Instagram with his complaints. 

It's kind of like Mike Fiers. He had a chance to address the team about cheating when he was on the Astros, but he didn't do it until he moved on to another team. 

It's kinda like the 3 officers who stood by and did nothing as another officer kneels on neck of George Floyd then claim I've only been an officer 3 days.

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5 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

It's kinda like the 3 officers who stood by and did nothing as another officer kneels on neck of George Floyd then claim I've only been an officer 3 days.

Correct. I hope they're in jail for the rest of their lives. They're just as guilty. 

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2 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

I stand by my comments, @Stradling. I don't get the "Come on Chuck you are better than this" comment either. 

Let me elaborate. 

I've always been raised that whenever you have a problem with a family member, friend or co-worker, you go to that person in private or in some rare cases publicly and address it. Today, there's been an attack on masculinity so it doesn't surprise me that men aren't grown-ups or real men anymore, so they take to social media or the media outlets to blast you or to file their complaints, when they had a chance to address them to the perpetrators as they happened. 

Again, I'm guessing he's laughed at and/or said gay and racial jokes in the past but now that the in-thing is to take to social media to claim that the World is racist and homophobic it comes across as disingenuous. 

Respectfully Chuck I think you have simplified your argument to much.

Often, when we are young, our opinions, experiences, and thoughts are not fully developed. These racist, sexist, tropes/comments have existed since the founding of this country (and beyond that) yet there has been little progression in changing our culture in regard to them. It could easily be that Ian Desmond has finally found the courage to speak up? Just because he has now broken "bro code" shouldn't condemn him to some non-masculinity hellscape.

This so-called "attack on masculinity" has come about because men have consistently been domineering shitheads, oh since the dawn of time? White men in particular wield so much power around the world and have dominated women and minorities so much that this move towards equality offends the sensibilities and power base of men (particularly white men, again) that they are lashing out like spoiled little babies (i.e. not real men). They don't want anyone else playing in their deluxe sandbox.

Also "guessing" at Ian Desmond's thoughts or projecting how he may or may not have acted without hearing it from his own mouth, is a bit irresponsible Chuck.

Let the man speak for himself and not put words in his mouth. Life is a series of constant learning opportunities and Ian Desmond may be learning something about himself that he has decided to share with the world.

 

EDIT: Not jumping on you Chuck, but I have been playing OOTP so much this is the first time I've read threads here in days....

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44 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

It's not just equipment, it's expensive travel teams and showcases. Baseball is incredibly more expensive than basketball and football. Plus you are acting like "it's a quicker path to money" is something that can't be changed. If baseball wanted to increase how quickly people made money they could increase minor league pay to a living wage and increase the amount players are paid while under club control. It's like when companies offer unpaid internships, only well off kids can do it. Additionally, colleges often don't give full scholarships for baseball like they do for basketball and football. Is it the owners' fault that white people in this county have built up a huge wealth advantage through racist laws during the first 200 years of this country's existence? No. But could they do things to increase black participation in baseball if they wanted. This is what structural racism is. No one has to be racist for negative outcomes to effect one group more than another because when the system was set up, it was racist. 

Yeah, Latin American players can do it, but that's because the cost of living there is so damn cheap. And if you don't think the system is bad for Latin American players, then please read about what goes on with the amateur talent over there.

Explain how white financial advantage results in more baseball participation. Ownership, maybe a better argument, but participation? Baseball participation is down, especially among black people, is based on culture and availability. Culturally, most dont like baseball, period. Second, there are no fields to play on, anywhere. Even in suburban areas there are no fields, they are all locked. This becomes worse for inner city youth who cant play on streets due to massive traffic and other difficulties. Curious to hear how you suggest they increase participation. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

Explain how white financial advantage results in more baseball participation. Ownership, maybe a better argument, but participation? Baseball participation is down, especially among black people, is based on culture and availability. Culturally, most dont like baseball, period. Second, there are no fields to play on, anywhere. Even in suburban areas there are no fields, they are all locked. This becomes worse for inner city youth who cant play on streets due to massive traffic and other difficulties. Curious to hear how you suggest they increase participation. 

 

White financial advantage manifests itself in the ability to purchase all of the equipment necessary to play professional baseball (gloves, bats, balls, catching gear, etc.). Additionally, the ability to purchase land, develop a baseball field and all of the necessary fencing, plates/bases, field maintenance, etc. has to come from a donor and/or local city government that is willing to invest in that community. The ability of a poor minority community to raise the funds and/or acquire and develop the needed property is not only financially-challenging but logistically-challenging and takes the strong will of an individual or community to make happen.

It also doesn't help that Major League Baseball doesn't seem to take a real, deep interest in minority communities overall. Certainly there are programs, owners and MLB players who champion various causes in the U.S. and abroad but is it enough?

If you're a young black man and you have a few bucks in your pocket and you are picking a sport to invest that money in, it is easier to buy a single football and play catch with your friends in a field or even purchase a basketball and dribble it around the neighborhood. Buying a glove, ball, and bat and convincing your friends to do the same so you actually have someone to play with is more of a financial stretch.

Finally, you are probably correct that baseball is not looked at culturally as a first-choice sport in black communities and that is all due to the financial threshold that must be met to participate in it.

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1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

It's not just equipment, it's expensive travel teams and showcases. Baseball is incredibly more expensive than basketball and football. Plus you are acting like "it's a quicker path to money" is something that can't be changed. If baseball wanted to increase how quickly people made money they could increase minor league pay to a living wage and increase the amount players are paid while under club control. It's like when companies offer unpaid internships, only well off kids can do it. Additionally, colleges often don't give full scholarships for baseball like they do for basketball and football. Is it the owners' fault that white people in this county have built up a huge wealth advantage through racist laws during the first 200 years of this country's existence? No. But could they do things to increase black participation in baseball if they wanted. This is what structural racism is. No one has to be racist for negative outcomes to effect one group more than another because when the system was set up, it was racist. 

Yeah, Latin American players can do it, but that's because the cost of living there is so damn cheap. And if you don't think the system is bad for Latin American players, then please read about what goes on with the amateur talent over there.

Im very well aware of what it takes, i went thru it with 3 kids 2 of which were recruited one was all county.   MLB invests in areas that need iot like all sports do, what sport they play is the athletes choice. 
Find me one story where a kid legitimately wanted to play baseball over football or basketball that couldnt... id love to read it.   Especially from these areas you are talking about... the faster money is a huge incentive for them, and you know.  It isnt even about race unless you are suggesting white kids cant be poor, which is bullshit.
As for the rest im not entertaining the social justice monologue that always comes back to the evil white guy being the root of all evil, you can save that for the next antifa meeting, im not biting.   All ill say is that there is no way MLB will pay minor leaguers whats rookies make in the NBA or NFL, that isnt a sustainable models with that many players in an organization.

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7 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

1. Explain how white financial advantage results in more baseball participation. Ownership, maybe a better argument, but participation? Baseball participation is down, especially among black people, is based on culture and availability. 2. Culturally, most dont like baseball, period. Second, there are no fields to play on, anywhere. Even in suburban areas there are no fields, they are all locked. 3. This becomes worse for inner city youth who cant play on streets due to massive traffic and other difficulties. Curious to hear how you suggest they increase participation. 

 

1. Baseball is much more a game of skill than football or baseball. It requires more coaching and practice and the equipment is fairly expensive. Also, the major showcases for baseball are all private travel teams. Having more wealth allows parents to transport kids to games and practice, hire private coaches, buy the equipment, and pay for the showcases. It also allows kids to take the risk of failing. If a kid gets a partial scholarship to a university and the parents can afford half a scholarship, then that was worth something. If a kid gets a half scholarship and the parents can't afford to pay anything, the scholarship means nothing. Well off kids can spend more time working on their studies and playing ball instead of watching their siblings, cooking, or whatever when their parents work. There are just tons of little advantages that wealth creates. It's not the owner's fault, but they could increase participation by sponsoring travel teams, buying equipment, diversifying where they scout, etc. Instead they are cutting their scouting departments. 

2. WTF? Black people used to like baseball. I think this is a lazy analysis and lets anyone off the hook for anything. Maybe baseball isn't big in black culture anymore because baseball turned its back on the black community. Even if true, shouldn't baseball try to change that? Not reaching out to the black community seems defeatist at best. 

3. White people were able to afford cars, move to the suburbs, spread out and have parks and room for baseball. Zoning laws have made building new houses much harder and more expensive. Housing prices have increased much faster than wages have for the working class. This is even before we look at discrimination in home loans. Black people don't have access to the same space that many white people do. Once again, not necessarily the owners' fault. But they can invest more in opening up little league facilities, sponsoring travel teams, supporting more park space. 

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2 hours ago, floplag said:

Im very well aware of what it takes, i went thru it with 3 kids 2 of which were recruited one was all county.   MLB invests in areas that need iot like all sports do, what sport they play is the athletes choice. 
1. Find me one story where a kid legitimately wanted to play baseball over football or basketball that couldnt... id love to read it.   Especially from these areas you are talking about... the faster money is a huge incentive for them, and you know.  2. It isnt even about race unless you are suggesting white kids cant be poor, which is bullshit.
As for the rest im not entertaining the social justice monologue that always comes back to the evil white guy being the root of all evil, you can save that for the next antifa meeting, im not biting.   All ill say is that there is no way MLB will pay minor leaguers whats rookies make in the NBA or NFL, that isnt a sustainable models with that many players in an organization.

1. You think there are a lot of stories out there interviewing 8 year old inner-city kids about their choice of sports. You think they can comprehend the financial choices or lack thereof of their parents. If they don't even know it's an option, how do they know what they are missing.

2. I'm not suggesting white kids can't be poor. I'm just suggesting there is a huge gap in wealth. Black kids can make the majors. I'm not suggesting all white kids can. I'm not suggesting that on average it's much harder for one group than another. And there weren't a lot of laws and regulations designed to keep white people poor for the first 200 years of existence which still have not been overcome. You saying that's my argument is like me saying if you think this isn't about race then you don't believe slavery was racist. 

3. There's a huge difference between the rookie wage in the NFL and NBA and what minor leaguers get. There's also a huge difference in how they treat their athletes with training, equipment, and food, as well. I'm not suggesting that you have to compete with the NFL and NBA rookie contracts. But be more than non-athletic alternatives. Go from paying kids $14k in AAA to $50,000. Heck, if you paid every minor leaguer $50,000 that's about $10 million a year on the whole minor leagues. That's the price of a good reliever (not even a closer) right now. If kids know they can play minor league ball and not be destitute when they are done, it would encourage people to try give it a shot.

I'm not sure why you're pro fascism, but I don't think being anti-fascism is the insult you seem to think it is. 

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3 hours ago, eaterfan said:

It's not just equipment, it's expensive travel teams and showcases. Baseball is incredibly more expensive than basketball and football. Plus you are acting like "it's a quicker path to money" is something that can't be changed. If baseball wanted to increase how quickly people made money they could increase minor league pay to a living wage and increase the amount players are paid while under club control. It's like when companies offer unpaid internships, only well off kids can do it. Additionally, colleges often don't give full scholarships for baseball like they do for basketball and football. Is it the owners' fault that white people in this county have built up a huge wealth advantage through racist laws during the first 200 years of this country's existence? No. But could they do things to increase black participation in baseball if they wanted. This is what structural racism is. No one has to be racist for negative outcomes to effect one group more than another because when the system was set up, it was racist. 

Yeah, Latin American players can do it, but that's because the cost of living there is so damn cheap. And if you don't think the system is bad for Latin American players, then please read about what goes on with the amateur talent over there.

Defund MLB

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Pujols? Might as well keep that .300 career batting average. Never thought that Pujols would potentially end his career with a batting average under .300 years ago. Then again, he's been hurt like every single year with the Angels. 

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6 hours ago, Kevinb said:

The question is should locker room banter be publicized? Of course there’s shit talking bad jokes and comments about women. They’re 20 something year old guys who for the most part are hooking up with chicks in all different cities. I had a friend in college who had her apartment paid for by ARod for a year plus while he was playing for the Yankees. This shit isn’t news it’s just idiotic to go run to the press about it. I don’t know just my two cents. 

Sure beats a gift basket

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8 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I think all MLB clubs should hire a Sensitivity Consultant to sit in each dugout to make sure nothing is said that is offensive. 

But what if Angel Hernandez is behind the plate?

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32 minutes ago, JocStrapling said:

This so-called "attack on masculinity" has come about because men have consistently been domineering shitheads”

You really made this statement?  You pathetic little beta soy boy!  I would love to use some of that so called “masculinity” to pummel your melon!  Yes, a typical toxic-masculine answer to a typical pathetic SJW, virtue signaling comment. What a pussy! 

What's funny about this comment is that, for those of us who know ettin, have no doubt he would pound you into the sand. 

 

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6 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Sure beats a gift basket

The best was. When he played at Angels Stadium. She would get a suite and she’d take her friends and family and I always was just like dude isn’t that weird? Like they know he’s paying for everything and you never go to New York. Like he only sees you in Ca haha. But whatever you gotta do what you gotta do. 

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On 6/30/2020 at 11:23 AM, ettin said:

White financial advantage manifests itself in the ability to purchase all of the equipment necessary to play professional baseball (gloves, bats, balls, catching gear, etc.). Additionally, the ability to purchase land, develop a baseball field and all of the necessary fencing, plates/bases, field maintenance, etc. has to come from a donor and/or local city government that is willing to invest in that community. The ability of a poor minority community to raise the funds and/or acquire and develop the needed property is not only financially-challenging but logistically-challenging and takes the strong will of an individual or community to make happen.

It also doesn't help that Major League Baseball doesn't seem to take a real, deep interest in minority communities overall. Certainly there are programs, owners and MLB players who champion various causes in the U.S. and abroad but is it enough?

If you're a young black man and you have a few bucks in your pocket and you are picking a sport to invest that money in, it is easier to buy a single football and play catch with your friends in a field or even purchase a basketball and dribble it around the neighborhood. Buying a glove, ball, and bat and convincing your friends to do the same so you actually have someone to play with is more of a financial stretch.

Finally, you are probably correct that baseball is not looked at culturally as a first-choice sport in black communities and that is all due to the financial threshold that must be met to participate in it.

I get what you are saying but my point was that there is literally nowhere to play for anybody. If someone purchases land for baseball development it would still probably be exclusive to that person or their baseball academy/league etc... The average kid would still be shut out (regardless of race). This is a baseball problem that now extends beyond the inequity that you mention. As far as equipment, you are right but kids need to be educated on how to procure free equipment. Such as writing letters to foundations or even MLB for help. I would bet they could get equipment this way (this is not to deny it is harder for AA kids to get than others).  

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On 6/30/2020 at 11:41 AM, eaterfan said:

1. Baseball is much more a game of skill than football or baseball. It requires more coaching and practice and the equipment is fairly expensive. Also, the major showcases for baseball are all private travel teams. Having more wealth allows parents to transport kids to games and practice, hire private coaches, buy the equipment, and pay for the showcases. It also allows kids to take the risk of failing. If a kid gets a partial scholarship to a university and the parents can afford half a scholarship, then that was worth something. If a kid gets a half scholarship and the parents can't afford to pay anything, the scholarship means nothing. Well off kids can spend more time working on their studies and playing ball instead of watching their siblings, cooking, or whatever when their parents work. There are just tons of little advantages that wealth creates. It's not the owner's fault, but they could increase participation by sponsoring travel teams, buying equipment, diversifying where they scout, etc. Instead they are cutting their scouting departments. 

2. WTF? Black people used to like baseball. I think this is a lazy analysis and lets anyone off the hook for anything. Maybe baseball isn't big in black culture anymore because baseball turned its back on the black community. Even if true, shouldn't baseball try to change that? Not reaching out to the black community seems defeatist at best. 

3. White people were able to afford cars, move to the suburbs, spread out and have parks and room for baseball. Zoning laws have made building new houses much harder and more expensive. Housing prices have increased much faster than wages have for the working class. This is even before we look at discrimination in home loans. Black people don't have access to the same space that many white people do. Once again, not necessarily the owners' fault. But they can invest more in opening up little league facilities, sponsoring travel teams, supporting more park space. 

I agree with almost everything you said but my point was that there is still no place to play. You make a good point that most baseball is played in academies/private facilities and that does exclude anyone that is not well to do. I am not denying those facts but baseball has an even bigger problem because alot of Americans are being excluded from play. The Point you make in 2 is not lazy but a fact, that AA culture does not like baseball. Although, this is not exclusively the sole problem, it does contribute. If a kid loves baseball, there are ways to play (this is probably alot harder for an AA kid but not impossible). I agree that baseball should reach out more, no doubt. As we are missing alot of possible good talent and this lessens the quality of the game.

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