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The thing I hate most about this is the delay in shitting all over the Astros.

Nobody comes to watch owners play. Artie a smart business man paid 160 mill for team now worth over 2 billion. I cannot feel sorry for the owners losing money. Owners making ton of money watching fans

They won't. Players are already mocking the proposal on Twitter. One said it was rejected before they hit the send button. Again, while the owners are being tough in these negotiations the player

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8 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

But have you read the letter?  OMG!!!  it's soooo insightful. 

In the end the owners are going to make money if they play no matter the details. They are the stewards of the game, it's on them if they don't come up with a deal in which case they will feel the effect on their franchise valuations.

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6 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

In the end the owners are going to make money if they play no matter the details. They are the stewards of the game, it's on them if they don't come up with a deal in which case they will feel the effect on their franchise valuations.

the first comment in that Athletic article sums the situation up perfectly...

Landry S.
4h ago
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MLB: Do you want a half dozen donuts?
MLBPA: No.
MLB: Oh, So you want 6?
MLBPA: That’s the same thing
MLB: Our mistake. How about 2 sets of 3?
MLBPA: Never mind.
MLB: Wait wait, I can give you 3 sets of 2. How’s that?
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8 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

Tony Clark is awful at his job. 

What's the old adage, a man who is his own lawyer has a fool for his client?

The players thought a former player made sense because he had been though their grind and would better understand the things they wanted....  That's how the ended up with a CBA that saw them get chefs for the clubhouse spread and losses everywhere else.  Clark was supposedly a great player rep and as the deputy executive director he did a great job of relaying the player's desires, but he had Michael Weiner there to fend off the sharks.  No way someone like Weiner, Donald Fehr, or Marvin Miller, allows them to agree to a deal minus any real guarantees much less one that allows the commish to unilaterally start the season regardless of whether an agreement is reached.

The owners may be playing dirty, but they are playing smart.... it's the players that put themselves into this position.  

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11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Sure thing Mr Manfred...   You should probably refrain from the childish BS... 

BTW -- about Halem's insipid letter...

https://theathletic.com/1870435/2020/06/12/mlbs-latest-proposal-to-players-comes-with-sharply-worded-letter-marking-ill-will/

Not until the third page does Halem detail what he calls the league’s “Final Counterproposal for 72 games,” in which the players would receive 70 percent of their prorated salaries for the regular season and up to 80 percent if the postseason is completed. The financial guarantee of the offer is the rough equivalent of the guarantee the players would receive if commissioner Rob Manfred exercises his right to impose a season for as few as 48 games at full prorated salary.

Responding to Halem, a PA spokesman said: Mr. Halems self-serving letter is filled with inaccuracies and incomplete facts. We will respond to that and the leagues latest proposal in short order. It should not be forgotten however that even MLB admits that our March Agreement does not require players to agree to further pay cuts. Indeed, as Mr. Halem agreed in a May 18 letter to Tony Clark: ‘The Association is free to take the position that players are unwilling to accept further reductions.’ Pat Houlihan, MLB legal counsel, similarly acknowledged in his May 22 letter to the Players Association. ‘We agree with the Association that, under the Agreement, players are not required to accept less than their full prorated salary.”

Soooo insightful...   The owners puppet is spewing the owner's rhetoric...    

Boy when you go full advocate you are all in....my reference to Halem’s letter was sarcastic, I was blaming him and the owners as much as the players....you and other player advocates and the full throated owner advocates on here are missing (my opinion only) what this is....two greedy, inflexible parties unwilling to make a deal except on their terms.....which means there will be no deal...a shame for the fans but that is where we are....I do see both sides (you and I understand that perhaps more than others) but I get frustrated when there is plenty of room for a reasonable deal and it doesn’t get done....

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17 hours ago, Fourts said:

They should reject it.  The problem the players are having though is that they need to SHUT-THE-F-UP.  Going into bunker mode and let your lawyers/PA do the talking behind the scenes.  Anyone commenting/etc. on social media and/or thru media is losing the fan war.  It's tone deaf in this economic environment.  How many owners are we hearing from complaining about the players and the terms of the negotiations?  They don't....and that's why they will ultimately come out the winners.  

If anything, they should just be saying we want to play and help the economy and country get back.  That's at most what they should say.  Anymore beyond is a losing proposition for them. 

Why would you want to take their 1st amendment right away. They have every right to speak up, I want to hear what players have to say. Pay the players fans do not go out to see owners play or sit in their luxury boxes.

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2 hours ago, DMVol said:

Boy when you go full advocate you are all in....my reference to Halem’s letter was sarcastic, I was blaming him and the owners as much as the players....you and other player advocates and the full throated owner advocates on here are missing (my opinion only) what this is....two greedy, inflexible parties unwilling to make a deal except on their terms.....which means there will be no deal...a shame for the fans but that is where we are....I do see both sides (you and I understand that perhaps more than others) but I get frustrated when there is plenty of room for a reasonable deal and it doesn’t get done....

You and I agree more than you probably think, I'm just tired of the way owners play fans for fools..   They are reading from a playbook that have employed since Dick Allen told them to F-off and as usual people are starting to aim their ire at the players.  The players are being inflexible, I agree, but they are being inflexible on the ONE thing they have held firm on since day one -- a salary cap.   Every single offer ownership has made to date is essentially a shell game designed to make the public believe they are attempting to bargain when in reality they aren't.   Not sure how anyone can argue otherwise, but if my calling them out for their BS amounts to being an "advocate" for the players then so be it.   It's better than sticking my head in the sand and pretending one side isn't playing dirty when they very clearly are.   But good on you for staying neutral I guess.

The really funny thing -- I actually blame the players for being in this spot, their decision to have Clark head the MLBPA is looking like it will go down in history as the biggest mistake they have ever made.   Dude is completely out of his league.

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45 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Why would you want to take their 1st amendment right away. They have every right to speak up, I want to hear what players have to say. Pay the players fans do not go out to see owners play or sit in their luxury boxes.

I think the point he is making is that players popping off is playing into the owner's hands.   The owners aren't trying to negotiate, they are trying to make the players come off as greedy out of touch millionaires...  Halem's letter is a good example of that and if you doubt it's working -- read this board.   

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Teams are being sold for billions of dollars. If the owners can’t handle taking a $100 million loss then they could easily sell the team and be extremely profitable. They’re killing the sport with this shit. I’m glad the players are being outspoken. They came to an agreement months ago where the players took cuts and then MLB backed out. That’s on the owners. If that agreement was in writing they should sue. 
 

Players are paying salaries for minor leaguers to made sure they’re taken care of. Meanwhile billionaire owners are firing anyone they can. If you’re on the side of the owners, you’re just flat out wrong 

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13 hours ago, Stradling said:

The grocery store worker should be better at baseball.  

Seriously or be good at anything for that matter. I see this crap on Twitter all the time in the comments. “Blah blah blah greedy assholes, while I work at Wal-Mart”

It’s not the players fault the minimum wage worker chose to do nothing with his life and now has zero leverage when it comes to his work situation. 
 

12 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

the first comment in that Athletic article sums the situation up perfectly...

Landry S.
4h ago
272 likes
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272
 
reply-icon.png
 
 
 
 
MLB: Do you want a half dozen donuts?
MLBPA: No.
MLB: Oh, So you want 6?
MLBPA: That’s the same thing
MLB: Our mistake. How about 2 sets of 3?
MLBPA: Never mind.
MLB: Wait wait, I can give you 3 sets of 2. How’s that?

Ha! That’s perfect 

 

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14 hours ago, HaloBronco said:

Life is a risk!

These spoiled brats make millions, what about the grocery store worker, what if none of them went to work because they didn't feel safe. Where would the rest of us be?  

You think all successful people are spoiled brats? The true answer to your question is if grocery workers quit they would be replaced. I'd wager the drop-off from a great grocery worker and a new hire isn't that much. Not saying we should't pay them a living wage. Just saying their labor is replaceable.

MLB players are, for the most part, not replaceable. Drop off from Degrom or Trout and a scab is a big cliff. 

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1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

You and I agree more than you probably think, I'm just tired of the way owners play fans for fools..   They are reading from a playbook that have employed since Dick Allen told them to F-off and as usual people are starting to aim their ire at the players.  The players are being inflexible, I agree, but they are being inflexible on the ONE thing they have held firm on since day one -- a salary cap.   Every single offer ownership has made to date is essentially a shell game designed to make the public believe they are attempting to bargain when in reality they aren't.   Not sure how anyone can argue otherwise, but if my calling them out for their BS amounts to being an "advocate" for the players then so be it.   It's better than sticking my head in the sand and pretending one side isn't playing dirty when they very clearly are.   But good on you for staying neutral I guess.

The really funny thing -- I actually blame the players for being in this spot, their decision to have Clark head the MLBPA is looking like it will go down in history as the biggest mistake they have ever made.   Dude is completely out of his league.

I agree to a large extent, except I don’t think the “per game/salary cap/no fans in the stands” hang up is as clear as you do...I do think the players have the better argument there but it’s not so clear that they shouldn’t compromise....And just because I blame both sides, at least to some extent, it doesn’t mean my head is in the sand....I think the owners are pretty much always going to be hard to deal with but I also think Tony Clark wants to correct the perception that he got “beat” in the last negotiations (in 2016)....I think that has added a layer of difficulty to getting a deal done....he is over his head and wants to show everybody that he is as tough and smart as Don Fehr....

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1 minute ago, DMVol said:

And just because I blame both sides, at least to some extent, it doesn’t mean my head is in the sand....

Likewise because I see ownership playing the same games they've always played it doesn't mean I'm "advocating" for the players..   See how that works? 

I'm calling a spade a spade -- nothing ownership has done is remotely close to a genuine attempt to negotiate.  The owners are making a total sham of the process and that letter they sent out was the most self serving tripe I've seen outside of the political world in a long time.   But rest assured, as soon as the players do something shady I'll call them out for it.   

3 minutes ago, DMVol said:

 think the owners are pretty much always going to be hard to deal with but I also think Tony Clark wants to correct the perception that he got “beat” in the last negotiations (in 2016)....I think that has added a layer of difficulty to getting a deal done....he is over his head and wants to show everybody that he is as tough and smart as Don Fehr....

Before I continue to shit all over Tony Clark let me say this, the one smart thing he's said (I think it was him), is that should the owners share their finances then the union would be willing to reconsider their position -- that was likely posturing and intended to put the owners into a corner but it's the only remotely intelligent position I've seen from him as the executive director of the MLBPA.   That may have been purely political but at least it made it seem the union was willing to play ball.

But that pithy statement aside, he is definitely in over his head.  Whether or not he's being more difficult because he got spanked at the bargaining table I have no idea -- but he's pretty clearly been spanked a second time by having agreed to the deal he did in March.   The way that agreement was drawn up has left the players at the owners mercy -- both sides know this.   It's also why ownership seems content to sit back let the situation get ugly as they continue to paint the players as the bad guys. 

As I have said previously -- this is history repeating itself.

 

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I miss baseball. Even though I miss it a lot, I'm not miserable without it. I hope they work things out, but my life isn't going to change much if they don't. 

I am not interested in playing the blame game either. I don't need to pick sides. I want baseball back, period. I view baseball as one entity. If baseball doesn't get its act together, I will be disappointed.

I'll still watch when it comes back. In the meantime, I'm just not dwelling on it too much.

One thing I won't do is watch scabs and that's because I'm not interested  in watching subpar baseball at all.

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Professional athletes may not be replaceable as far as quality but a missed season hurts the owners, players and those in the industry most of all.  I have nothing against owners or players making what they do because it's driven by the market but over the last few decades the major US sports have benefited greatly from the increased revenues which are driven by the fans.  Cable TV deals, merchandise, ticket sales and so on are all luxuries that when it comes down to it fans can and will cut.  The 2020 MLB season is a victim of when COVID hit but no matter who you side with in this if either side at all there's no denying that a missed season isn't good for the sport as it will turn off some casual and even longtime fans.  I'd love to have baseball to watch on TV this year and discuss here but it's not going to ruin my year or financially impact me if they don't pull it off.   

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The players have no incentive to agree to a deal unless they get paid more than the amount they'd get from a 48 game season and full-prorated salary. The 72 game @ 70% guaranteed pays them approximately 48-49 games worth so why would the players agree to play 24 more games for 1 game more salary? It would also come with expanded playoffs which would primarily benefit the owners.

I was originally on the owners side because I just wanted baseball back but with the 48 game baseline, I support the players because the owners have not made any effort to improve the money the players would get in any of their proposals. They are negotiating in bad faith because they have not come off of their original position at all.

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I wonder if the urgency to play would be different if the season was already under way? In 1981 there were hot pennant races. Fans were eager for a resolution. When baseball came back it was celebrated and regained popularity.

In 1994 there was no resolution and baseball was damaged for a long time. 

In both cases, the seasons were underway and fan focus was strong. 

If this season was in progress, fans would have more of  a vested interest in seeing it resume. Imagine if Adell was emerging as a star, Trout and Rendon leading the league in homers/hitting and so on. 

With the season never starting, maybe it"s better to just let the hostile sides cool off, get a reality check and work out a long term agreement. Start fresh in 2021 with a strong promotional push, some tweaks to the game and wipe out this never ending animosity between sides.

Ironic that Donald Fehr has been head of the NHL players association and they seem to get things done. No Bowie Kuhn to deal with.

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