Universal DH Happening

[Brandon]

22 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

The one game a year where Noah Syndergaard throws a 1-0 shutout and hits the home run isn't worth watching pitchers put up a .300 OPS (or whatever it is).  

 

It doesn't make the "strategy" interesting, it makes the at bats dumb as fuck.

Shits real when m0nkey drops an f-bomb

[Lou]

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

Shits real when m0nkey drops an f-bomb

I'm such a proud father

[Mark PT]

4 hours ago, failos said:

Fans of the DH are most likely small brained. They don't see the strategy that a 9-hole pitcher creates--but you ninnies only want to watch hits, HRs, and gripe about baseball being too boring. Baseball is a game of strategy, if you want action go watch football and drink some natty ice you pieces of shits

You see, I knew it, the Covid-19 was around a long time ago. Here's a picture of MS wearing a mask and defending himself against it.

[Mark PT]

3 hours ago, oldguy said:

Nope, its youth sports that's killing it (not to mention video games).  Every kid now needs two triple-walled bats (they look like deadpool when they carry it around in their backpack), their own helmet, two batting gloves, shoes, backpack to carry it all, AND AN ADULT TO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO!!!  When's the last time you saw a pickup game in your area?  Kids nowadays don't even know that "over-the-line" is. Inner city kids are priced out.

Back in the '60s and '70s we had 4 helmets for the team, about a dozen baseballs for the season (we kept one "game ball" for the whole season), nobody had their own bat, and only the rich-spoiled brat kid had a batting glove (we were all jealous of it).  I rode to the park with my shoes and glove slung over the handlebars.  We usually had only about one or two parents in the stands (usually a couple of dads who'd been drinking and loved to harass the ump).  The coach was the guy who drew the short straw.  It was like Adam Carolla says, "Who do you want taking your kids camping?  The guy who immediately raises his hand?  No!!!  The guy who is trying to sneak out the back door....that's who you want taking your kids camping!!! (in our case, that was the guy who had to coach little league)"

However, after our little league game, we would play pickup games, (over the line if not enough players) until dark, and, I would argue, we developed our skills just through shear repetition and had WAAAY more fun.

The same is happening in basketball.  Summer camps used to be for skill development.  Now they are for playing games.  When your kid is on a team of twelve, just what percent of the time does he/she have the ball in their hands?   

I would add that there are also no places to play. Little league, high school, and recreational park fields are all closed. There are no places to play. even streets in OC are mostly crowded now, unlike in the 70s when I was  kid. 

[Tank]

4 hours ago, failos said:

Fans of the DH are most likely small brained. They don't see the strategy that a 9-hole pitcher creates--but you ninnies only want to watch hits, HRs, and gripe about baseball being too boring. Baseball is a game of strategy, if you want action go watch football and drink some natty ice you pieces of shits

you didn't get your nap today, didja?

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, Duren, Duren said:

Is strategy boring? Elimination of the pitcher at bat makes the game more robotic and less interesting. 

The pitcher at bat makes managerial decisions much more interesting. Especially in close games. Keep a pitcher in who is doing well, but down a run when his turn to bat comes up? Pinch hit, double switch, try and  sacrifice if runners are on base with less than two out? Risk losing a great pitching performance by bringing in a mediocre reliever?   

And having a pitcher at bat also makes pinch hitting more important. Teams with good pinch hitters are at an advantage in clutch situations and likely to pull the pitcher quicker than those without a deep bench. 

I prefer strategy rather than brain dead slugging. Often by fat, old players who aren't athletic enough to play on the field. The DH is almost like a field goal kicker in football. A specialist with just one skill.

   

 

But that 1 skill makes up over 90 + % of the total action to people who are luke warm to baseball or to those who dont know the game. You are a baseball purist, as am I, but we need to recognize that baseball is not what it was, say, 20 years ago. People dont like this sport overall. They need to make it as interesting to more people as possible and all most see when a manager is deciding whether to pinch hit or keep his pitcher in is just a delay in the action. 

[Lou]

I've noticed young people are never the baseball purists 

[Brandon]

Old whitey wanting to see sac bunts.

Enthralling!!

[AngelsLakersFan]

23 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

But that 1 skill makes up over 90 + % of the total action to people who are luke warm to baseball or to those who dont know the game. You are a baseball purist, as am I, but we need to recognize that baseball is not what it was, say, 20 years ago. People dont like this sport overall. They need to make it as interesting to more people as possible and all most see when a manager is deciding whether to pinch hit or keep his pitcher in is just a delay in the action. 

It's a mistake to focus on appealing to casual fans. You will never succeed trying to turn people who don't like baseball into fans at the expense of actual fans.

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It's a mistake to focus on appealing to casual fans. You will never succeed trying to turn people who don't like baseball into fans at the expense of actual fans.

Not true at all. Just like politics 40% will vote right and left, it’s about the other 20%. Baseball purists will always be there. You need the attention of the casual fans/middle to keep this sport going. Right now baseball is in 3rd place in terms of national perception. Baseball like the other sports has to continue to evolve or it’ll die off. By die off I don’t mean it’ll be no more. I just mean in terms of relevancy with the general public. DH is just one step in the many that baseball needs to do to modernize the sport. A pitcher bunting or striking out does nothing for the casual fan. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

6 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Not true at all. Just like politics 40% will vote right and left, it’s about the other 20%. Baseball purists will always be there. You need the attention of the casual fans/middle to keep this sport going. Right now baseball is in 3rd place in terms of national perception. Baseball like the other sports has to continue to evolve or it’ll die off. By die off I don’t mean it’ll be no more. I just mean in terms of relevancy with the general public. DH is just one step in the many that baseball needs to do to modernize the sport. A pitcher bunting or striking out does nothing for the casual fan. 

I agree we aren't talking about people that actively dislike baseball. 

Mark is talking about "people who are lukewarm to baseball or don't know the game" and references "people don't like the sport overall" when adding that they need to increase interest in the game to as many people as possible. For these people you don't make any changes to the game at all. You make changes to the in game fan experience - the quality of the food, the ambiance of the park, the inter-inning entertainment, etc.

When I hear someone like yourself, or Lou say that they love the DH I think MLB should be listening to those people even though they are the diehards, because even diehards can lose interest. I don't think they should be listening to or spend time being concerned with the people Mark is referring to when it comes to making actual changes to the game.

[Mark PT]

30 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It's a mistake to focus on appealing to casual fans. You will never succeed trying to turn people who don't like baseball into fans at the expense of actual fans.

Ya, I agree with you but I was speaking in terms of what a manager (MLB exec) is trying to accomplish for the sport. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

Just now, Mark PT said:

Ya, I agree with you but I was speaking in terms of what a manager (MLB exec) is trying to accomplish for the sport. 

I do think Manfred's simplistic calculations have this as a plus for casual fans, but I think he's been saving this up as a concession to the MLBPA who see it as an additional starting position player job.

[Mark PT]

4 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I do think Manfred's simplistic calculations have this as a plus for casual fans, but I think he's been saving this up as a concession to the MLBPA who see it as an additional starting position player job.

The player's union is another variable that is sometimes hard to factor in, but ya they will fight for the DH so their players last longer and get bigger contracts in their old age.

[Brandon]

The sport is dying. Keep the status quo and keep trucking on because of the "purist"?

Part of the reason the NFL is top dog is because they assess their game and rules every year to provide a better product.

The writing has been on the wall for a while as going the way of the dinosaur. They are trying to make changes to appeal to everyone and try (probably won't happen, but good luck) and get more fans. Times have changed and baseball has been slow to adjust and adapt. People don't want to watch a game that runs 4 hours and is slow with things like pitchers swinging bats.

This isn't even my opinion. Look at the data and reason for change proposals.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Mark PT said:

The player's union is another variable that is sometimes hard to factor in, but ya they will fight for the DH so their players last longer and get bigger contracts in their old age.

I think going to a universal DH is the worst decision they could make, worse than the status quo. If they were really looking to improve the game, simply going with an 8 man lineup would have been far better.

[Docwaukee]

some sort of hybrid would be fun but at the end of the day is the strategy involved around the pitcher being in the lineup really all that interesting?  

'hey son.  put your phone down for a sec and check out this double switch.'  

although I guess the alternative is 

'hey son.  put your phone down for a sec and come watch this guy past his prime try to hit a hr but probably strike out' .  

but I prefer the DH or the pitching hitting and I consider myself a pretty strong baseball enthusiast.  

I've always felt like not having the DH would be like telling all NFL teams that the QB also had to play defense.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

9 minutes ago, Brandon said:

The sport is dying. Keep the status quo and keep trucking on because of the "purist"?

Part of the reason the NFL is top dog is because they assess their game and rules every year to provide a better product.

The writing has been on the wall for a while as going the way of the dinosaur. They are trying to make changes to appeal to everyone and try (probably won't happen, but good luck) and get more fans. Times have changed and baseball has been slow to adjust and adapt. People don't want to watch a game that runs 4 hours and is slow with things like pitchers swinging bats.

This isn't even my opinion. Look at the data and reason for change proposals.

IMO this debate always ends up looking at the wrong things.

I completely agree with your larger point about baseball's declining popularity, and the DH argument always turns into an appeal to stop the bleeding. Sadly, moving to a universal DH isn't going to move the needle for the sport. Baseball's problems have little to do with baseball itself. They are socio-economic... like college tuition, the cost of playing baseball is pricing kids out. You ask a baseball fan where their fandom came from and most will tell you it came from their dad. The decline of the nuclear family leads to less interest from kids and less money for growing league and equipment fees. Kids grow up without a basis for loving the sport or experience playing it, of course they aren't fans. 

Yes, the pace of the game is slowing too, but a lot of that is the result of financially driven changes that have accrued in the game over time. Stuff like television commercials, analytics and even increased offense.

To me the pro/con DH argument has always been a debate between different groups of hardcore fans about which flavor of the game they preferred. Going strictly DH is kind of like Coke changing their formula to taste just like Pepsi (but the other way around). I imagine there will be a small minority of vocal, highly upset fans, and a majority of moderately pleased people... the casuals won't care. The league would be better served maximizing the enjoyment of its hardcore fans not trying to make changes that they think appeal to casual fans and the MLBPA.

[AngelsLakersFan]

26 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

some sort of hybrid would be fun but at the end of the day is the strategy involved around the pitcher being in the lineup really all that interesting?  

To me it's more about maintaining the value and strategic use of the bench. With the DH you basically keep your lineup the same everyday without considering matchups or advantages. Keep a utility player on the bench in case someone gets hurt and stock up the pen with power arms. In the modern game there really isn't much for a manager to do. In fact I would say compared to other major sports AL baseball requires the least strategy. In fact I think we generally lose our minds in the GameDay threads because of constant mindless over-managing.

[Claude]

I like making pitchers hit. The late game strategy makes the game more challenging. The DH position allows too many players to stay in the game way past their prime. The DH pretty much killed the art of pinch hitting. Another great thing that the game has lost is base stealing.
 

The game has changed to accommodate the long ball. We won’t see many 20 game winners any more. We won’t see many complete games anymore. And then there’s the opener. Ain’t that a bag of crap. Nolan Ryan would tell any manager to GTFO if they suggested an opener. 

[Brandon]

Yeah, it's called evolution.

I don't know why baseball and baseball fans are the only ones to not adapt or adjust. Every other sport makes changes or adjusts.....hockey got rid of the neutral zone trap to be more offensive and it worked, football opened up the game for more scoring, etc. Who gives a shit what Nolan Ryan thinks or would tell a manager, his era has passed and it's a different climate with a different set of fans and viewership.

Baseball is boring and the only sport that doesn't push or press when down or need to score. I appreciate intricacies and nuances of in game adjustments....part of what makes pitching changes interesting. The game needs to change a bit as it's dying. This would be an interesting adjustment, but I get it old white purist guy thinks his game is being demolished even though it's already failing. 

[kevinb]

I also like the argument from the 70s that oh the DH is just a bunch of over the hill people playing it. I recall David Ortiz mashing consistently at any of his ages. Ohtani would be a useful DH when he’s not pitching and he’s young. I get the anger or annoyance from baseball purists. But baseball needs to evolve for the casual fan or the sport is going to cease to be relevant in a time when sports is the last beacon of live tv we have left. 

[Chuck]

4 hours ago, Lou said:

Watching pitchers try to hit a ball is boring. 

Agreed. 

This was a long overdue move! 

[Claude]

23 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Yeah, it's called evolution.

I don't know why baseball and baseball fans are the only ones to not adapt or adjust. Every other sport makes changes or adjusts.....hockey got rid of the neutral zone trap to be more offensive and it worked, football opened up the game for more scoring, etc. Who gives a shit what Nolan Ryan thinks or would tell a manager, his era has passed and it's a different climate with a different set of fans and viewership.

Baseball is boring and the only sport that doesn't push or press when down or need to score. I appreciate intricacies and nuances of in game adjustments....part of what makes pitching changes interesting. The game needs to change a bit as it's dying. This would be an interesting adjustment, but I get it old white purist guy thinks his game is being demolished even though it's already failing. 

You have some valid points but I think the game lost its luster right after the league had to pull the plug on their highest ratings during the PED era. The fans loved watching Sosa, Bonds and Big Mac (National League) mash the ball. Baseball was on top of the charts and then it was over. All of the star players got ED at the same time and the ratings sunk like the titanic. It was a huge letdown for the fans after the bar was falsely set so high. Baseball failed itself. 
 

[Brandon]

10 minutes ago, RendZone said:

You have some valid points but I think the game lost its luster right after the league had to pull the plug on their highest ratings during the PED era. The fans loved watching Sosa, Bonds and Big Mac (National League) mash the ball. Baseball was on top of the charts and then it was over. All of the star players got ED at the same time and the ratings sunk like the titanic. It was a huge letdown for the fans after the bar was falsely set so high. Baseball failed itself. 
 

gnar