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Manfred live now on mlb.com


T.G.

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'we asked a bunch of cheaters and liars to tell us what happened but they wouldn't'  

'then we asked the people paid to protect the cheaters and liars to see if they could get them to tell us that they cheated and lied and they said not if they get punished for the cheating and lying'  

'so we told them that they wouldn't get punished for cheating and lying if they told us that they cheated and lied'  

Here's a thought.  You have a recording of of every pitch of every game.  You're not a court.  There is no jury.  You are not bound by the confines of due process.  Reasonable doubt doesn't mean as much.  If you have circumstantial evidence you can make a reasonable decision.

You know what this really is to me?  It's either laziness or impatience. 

So in order to maintain your relationship with the mlbpa, you puss out and try to keep them on your side.  And now you throw them under the bus for doing exactly what they are paid to do because you don't want to take the time to conduct a thorough investigation and you'd rather try to get cheaters to confess to cheating.  

Here's another thought.  People willing to cheat and game the system aren't going to willingly admit that they did so.  

Manfred literally could not have done a worse job of handling this and now he's trying to do damage control and is only making things worse.  

he essentially asked a guy who stole a care if he stole a car and when that guy wouldn't cooperate, he went to the guys attorney and asked if he could get the guy to cooperate and the attorney said sure no problem.  As long as there was no punishment if he did.  When instead, Manfred could have taken finger prints from the car and showed the video from the convenience store parking lot where he stole the car and the two eye witnesses who could have identified the guy who stole the care.  

How about AJ Hinch or Mike Fiers? 

Take a hard line and do your job you unbelievable wuss.    

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1 hour ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

If the players union represents the players...and the majority of the players are pissed off, I don’t understand the problem. You just screwed the majority to protect a few. 

It is the union’s legal responsibility to protect every player not just the majority of players. Evan Drellich’s piece in the athletic laid it out legally pretty well. This mess was likely caused because of terrible foresight by the league. They thought the teams would generally not cheat or if they did it would not be player driven. This led to disastrous letter in 2017 putting onus on teams to stop the cheating and not laying out possible punishment for players. That one decision probably more than anything led to this disaster. 

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The more I think about it, the worse it seems. There have been some commissioners and league presidents who made various blunders. Bud Selig the worst to date. Bowie Kuhn had his issues. But this really could be something that creates major ongoing damage.

The players are pissed big time. They bust their butts assuming the playing field is equal. Even accounting for savvy individuals who use their wits to personally study opposing patterns and giveaway tips. 

But this Astro cheating is a team conspiracy, and relied on sophisticated technology outside the game. 

USC was stripped of a championship fairly won on the field for an administrative red tape process rule. Seems the punishment was disproportionately vindictive too, extending into multiple penalties and essentially ruining an entire program for years. 

The 1994 World Series was abandoned without any winner being named. 

The 1919 Series title stayed with the Reds because they weren't the cheaters, but it forever was recognized as tainted. 

But this time the cheaters won and remain recognized as the winners. 

The fact that championships have been vacated in other sports (Many times in the Olympics, NCAA,  European soccer etc.) should be instructive. 

Guilt has been confessed. It's not the issue.

The cheating players have not been punished at all and have their rings and money. And still keep playing and make more money. 

This lack of integrity tarnished the image and mythology of the sport. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Duren, Duren said:

The more I think about it, the worse it seems. There have been some commissioners and league presidents who made various blunders. Bud Selig the worst to date. Bowie Kuhn had his issues. But this really could be something that creates major ongoing damage.

The players are pissed big time. They bust their butts assuming the playing field is equal. Even accounting for savvy individuals who use their wits to personally study opposing patterns and giveaway tips. 

But this Astro cheating is a team conspiracy, and relied on sophisticated technology outside the game. 

USC was stripped of a championship fairly won on the field for an administrative red tape process rule. Seems the punishment was disproportionately vindictive too, extending into multiple penalties and essentially ruining an entire program for years. 

The 1994 World Series was abandoned without any winner being named. 

The 1919 Series title stayed with the Reds because they weren't the cheaters, but it forever was recognized as tainted. 

But this time the cheaters won and remain recognized as the winners. 

The fact that championships have been vacated in other sports (Many times in the Olympics, NCAA,  European soccer etc.) should be instructive. 

Guilt has been confessed. It's not the issue.

The cheating players have not been punished at all and have their rings and money. And still keep playing and make more money. 

This lack of integrity tarnished the image and mythology of the sport. 

 

 

lol at usc being punished because of an "administrative red tape rule" 

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15 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

How is this not at least close to being as bad as the Black Sox scandal?    Yet these players get off scot free? 

I don't think this is the same as the Black Sox scandal. They weren't losing on purpose. I know the sign-stealing informed them about the types of pitches, but did it do the same for location? Also, the sign-stealing only helped the batters, correct?

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15 hours ago, yk9001 said:

Guarantee you that Manfred had zero idea the players would react like that.

to be honest, I am pleasantly surprised.

The "piece of metal" comment was the cherry on the shit sundae.

 

And now we found out that there was trashcan banging in the playoffs.

Yeah, I agree. He had no idea there would be such backlash. He can't do any further punishment now and I understand the spot he was in. To get to the truth, he had to offer the players immunity. It's a big mess because he can't let the players go wild when they mete out their own punishment. 

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Just now, Torridd said:

To get to the truth, he had to offer the players immunity.

I am going to push back a little on the semantics here.

We have zero idea if we got the truth.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet some folding money that we didn't get the truth.

Let's say that in order to get the players to talk at all, he had to offer the players immunity.

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3 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I am going to push back a little on the semantics here.

We have zero idea if we got the truth.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet some folding money that we didn't get the truth.

Let's say that in order to get the players to talk at all, he had to offer the players immunity.

Do you have a theory of what happened? 

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2 hours ago, Stradling said:

Like every other union. 

As they should.  Blaming the union for insisting that MLB do their job is disingenuous.  MLB has all of the videos necessary for identifying all of the players involved.  It seems that Manfred and MLB doesn't want to do the work for whatever reason.

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9 minutes ago, Torridd said:

Do you have a theory of what happened? 

Well, I know the original Manfred report was wrong.  It said that it was player driven. Luhnow's disgusting fingerprints were all over this. (annoying buzzer sound).  The report says first news happened after the Mike Fiers Athletic story (annoying buzzer sound). I certainly don't believe Jim Crane didn't have any knowledge.  That sounds like every well known college head basketball coach knowing zero about their assistants giving bagfuls of money to recruits. (annoying buzzer sound)  Altuve's argument for holding his shirt after hitting the game winning homer makes no sense at all. (annoying buzzer sound).  Astros players said many didn't think it was effective.  Meanwhile, Astro strikeout totals were at historic lows.(annoying buzzer sound)  Astros players said it didn't happen in the 2017 postseason. (annoying buzzer sound)

That's just for starters.

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8 hours ago, Duren, Duren said:

USC was stripped of a championship fairly won on the field for an administrative red tape process rule. Seems the punishment was disproportionately vindictive too, extending into multiple penalties and essentially ruining an entire program for years. 

"Lack of Institutional Control" would not have been the verdict if they inadvertantly violated some process rules.  It was their monumental hubris during the investigation that led to the penalties because rather than cooperating and letting the blame fall on the specific people who were primarily responsible, Garrett/Carroll, they circled the wagons.  Those two put themselves above the institution and because of it, the penalties were warranted.

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I think this is the biggest scandal to hit professional sports in decades.

A couple of thoughts...

Manfred is a labor attorney.  He's supposedly good at that. Being commissioner doesn't seem like a good fit for him.

Lots of talk about transparency - but the reality is there hasn't been enough of it.  We still don't have all the facts and all the information. What complicates all of it is the inconsistency in what players, the commish, and others have said. A lot of deflection of blame and very little remorse has been demonstrated. There is also a total lack of accountability. All of this compounds the problem and the issues.

The good thing is how the rest of the players in the league have reacted and spoken out.  I don't recall this level of outrage when the PED thing broke.  Sure, there were a few - but the number of players who have spoken out on this issue has been monumental.  I don't think anyone - let alone the commish or the Player's Association could have anticipated that.  This kind of unity among the rest of the league is the thing that will spark real change.

At the end of the day, the public and the players believe justice hasn't been served.  Not even close. Until that's rectified some how and some way - this isn't going away.  And unfortunately, justice - at least the kind of justice we are all clamoring for isn't likely to take place. At the very least - Jim Crane has to be held accountable and the 2017 WS title has to be vacated.  Baseball once punished George Steinbrenner - it should punish Crane. Those are the minimums and that's not enough. We all want to see the players held accountable, but again - that's just not likely. It's unfortunate. It's wrong. It sucks. It makes many of us angry. So.. what do we do?  We don't let the topic die. We make it overwhelmingly uncomfortable for the Astros organization any way we can. We make this the main subject of every conversation involving the Astros. We steal their joy and make sure baseball isn't fun for them any more.

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6 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

There is no problem. The union would have been on board with player punishments after 95% of the union membership demanded it. 

The Trouts, Judges and Bellingers being pissed in front of a microphone is a lot different that 95% of the union membership demanding punishment.

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6 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

There is no problem. The union would have been on board with player punishments after 95% of the union membership demanded it. 

It looks like that's the issue. The Players Assoc., whoever's in charge of it, never thought  that the league as a whole would be against the Astros so they did what they always do, protect the union as a whole. 

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The hits keep coming.  I love that the players are pissed.

Giancarlo Stanton, step up to the plate.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28736507/giancarlo-stanton-sounds-astros-2017-scheme-hit-80-home-runs-knew-pitch

 

My favorite is players calling out another team's owner

"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80 plus home runs," said Stanton, who quipped, "He knew. He knew," when told of Crane's ambivalence in addressing the impact of sign stealing.

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Manfred has to make $20 million a year.  Crane is a billionaire.

How can these guys sound SO STUPID in front of a microphone? 

They either hire the worst PR and crisis management people possible;  Or more likely, these men of stature are so used to having people hear their farts, and the people tell them its Beethoven, that they think that people will believe anything they say.

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