Would you rather overpay in trade assets or in free agent money/term for a frontline starter?

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, budice0 said:

Ohtani likely shouldn't be Pitching. 

Why not?

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Best example of all time (in best Oracle):  The NFL's Chicago Cardinals had a dynamic RB named Ollie Matson in the 1950's.   Before the 1959 season, they traded him to the Rams for 11 players.   One problem for the Cardinals, most of those 11 players were in the words of the team's trainer, absolute garbage.   

The flipside.... Herschel Walker.   Different sports but the common denominator is finding the right players coming back.  

[Angel Oracle]

14 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The flipside.... Herschel Walker.   Different sports but the common denominator is finding the right players coming back.  

The Cowboys were a lot better run franchise even in their down time in the mid/late 1980s, than the Chicago Cardinals were in the late 1950s.   

Cowboys were smart enough to have a lot of draft picks coming to them in the trading away of Walker to the Vikings, including 1st AND 2nd round picks in 1990, 1991, AND 1992.   That plus the drafting of Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith helped clear the way for the Cowboys to return to their winning ways in the 1990s.  

Edited January 21, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[arch stanton]

Look at MLB trades. The Expos traded for Fat Bart in '02. Gave up Sizemore who was one of the league's best players through his control years, Cliff Lee who won a CYA, Brandon Phillips, and Lee Stevens. The Expos then proceeded to finish 12 games back of the wildcard then Bart bailed to Chicago

[951ANGEL]

The Angels have never developed and kept one of their own since Frank Tananna. It's the Angels story. They need better coaching to develop these youngsters in the minors. Mike Clevinger was ours until we shipped him off to Cleveland.

[DMVol]

6 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Look at MLB trades. The Expos traded for Fat Bart in '02. Gave up Sizemore who was one of the league's best players through his control years, Cliff Lee who won a CYA, Brandon Phillips, and Lee Stevens. The Expos then proceeded to finish 12 games back of the wildcard then Bart bailed to Chicago

Fair point....but there are lots of other trades where the prospects didn't turn out as well....From an Angels perspective, Simmons was a good deal where the prospects haven't come back to haunt us.....Newcomb looks to be a reliever and Ellis didn't do much.....

[Rally Gorilla]

IMHO,  our team has been slow to understand the value of young cost-controlled players in the post-steroid era.    Overpaying in prospects and FA contracts has led us to a thin farm system, some major weaknesses in our roster,  being financially hamstrung, and 10 years without a post season win.     I think the way out of this hole is to stop digging.

[DMVol]

6 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

....I think the way out of this hole is to stop digging.....

We pretty much have.....Pujols and Hamilton were hard lessons for Arte....I guess you would have to include Upton in the discussion but Rendon is really the first significant FA since Pujols and Hamilton....

 

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

IMHO,  Dipoto has been slow to understand the value of young cost-controlled players in the post-steroid era.    Overpaying in prospects and FA contracts has led us to a thin farm system, some major weaknesses in our roster,  being financially hamstrung, and 10 years without a post season win.     I think the way out of this hole is to stop digging.

Fixed

[Inside Pitch]

I know last year left a bad taste in people's mouths and that their opinions on the younger players took a hit -- but if you need a reminder of just how young those guys are..   BBA released the Angels top prospect list today and this is their projected lineup in 2023...  Please note their ages in 2023, four seasons from today.

https://www.baseballamerica.com/rankings/2020-los-angeles-angels-top-mlb-prospects/

Here's how we project their lineup in 2023, with their 2023 age in parentheses.

Catcher: Max Stassi (32)
First Base: Matt Thaiss (28)
Second Base: David Fletcher (29)
Third Base: Anthony Rendon (33)
Shortstop: Jeremiah Jackson (23)
Left Field: Brandon Marsh (25)
Center Field: Mike Trout (31)
Right Field: Jo Adell (24)
Designated Hitter: Shohei Ohtani (28)

No. 1 Starter: Shohei Ohtani (28)
No. 2 Starter: Griffin Canning (27)
No. 3 Starter: Chris Rodriguez (24)
No. 4 Starter: Patrick Sandoval (26)
No. 5 Starter: Jose Suarez (25)
Closer: Ty Buttrey (30)

[Inside Pitch]

Also -- Brandon Marsh who people seem to be so willing to trade was rated the best hitter for average, discipline, arm and defense.  Jo Adell topped two categories....   That's how well rounded a prospect Marsh is.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

On 1/21/2020 at 8:42 AM, Inside Pitch said:

Also -- Brandon Marsh who people seem to be so willing to trade was rated the best hitter for average, discipline, arm and defense.  Jo Adell topped two categories....   That's how well rounded a prospect Marsh is.

you can have all the best young cost controlled players you want but with sub par pitching you're going nowhere.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Ace-Of-Diamonds

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

I know last year left a bad taste in people's mouths and that their opinions on the younger players took a hit -- but if you need a reminder of just how young those guys are..   BBA released the Angels top prospect list today and this is their projected lineup in 2023...  Please note their ages in 2023, four seasons from today.

https://www.baseballamerica.com/rankings/2020-los-angeles-angels-top-mlb-prospects/

Here's how we project their lineup in 2023, with their 2023 age in parentheses.

Catcher: Max Stassi (32)
First Base: Matt Thaiss (28)
Second Base: David Fletcher (29)
Third Base: Anthony Rendon (33)
Shortstop: Jeremiah Jackson (23)
Left Field: Brandon Marsh (25)
Center Field: Mike Trout (31)
Right Field: Jo Adell (24)
Designated Hitter: Shohei Ohtani (28)

No. 1 Starter: Shohei Ohtani (28)
No. 2 Starter: Griffin Canning (27)
No. 3 Starter: Chris Rodriguez (24)
No. 4 Starter: Patrick Sandoval (26)
No. 5 Starter: Jose Suarez (25)
Closer: Ty Buttrey (30)

Technically the start of 2023 is three seasons away, it's only three years away from right now. Still, point taken.

Stassi at C is disturbing. But they can always throw money at JT Realmuto or in two seasons Willson Contreras. They could always draft a college catcher and hope he's ready by 2023.

I was never impressed with Thaiss, but as he has developed, and added to his defense, playing third, that makes him a valuable bench piece now, even if his future is at 1st, once Pujols retires after two more years. Is he really only going into his age 25 season in 2020?

Jackson at SS is interesting. Does he stay at Burlington all this year or finish at High A? And only 19 in 2020? Is it perhaps more likely the middle infield duo above is flipped for defensive purposes? Fletcher at SS and Jackson at 2nd?

Rodriguez as the #3 starter is interesting, but I doubt the entire rotation is all Angels home grown guys. Still, I didn't realize Sandoval was only 23.

If this is indeed the future, you'd likely be carrying a payroll of around $5+5+10+35+min+min+36+3+25+12+min+4+min+min = $135-150 give or take, which leaves room for a higher profile pitching acquisition or two.

 

 

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Also -- Brandon Marsh who people seem to be so willing to trade was rated the best hitter for average, discipline, arm and defense.  Jo Adell topped two categories....   That's how well rounded a prospect Marsh is.

I was always a trade Marsh over trading Adell guy, but it appears the Angels don't really want to trade either guy, or even Matt Thaiss.

Rengifo isn't going to bring back a big arm, and Adams value will be higher in the summer than now, while I think they may still try to get a starter, they really like these guys so I doubt they move them. The WIlson/Cozart trade was all about making room in the budget for Rendon and a top arm, but no one signed, so now we look at the options, decide they are too expensive in terms of future cost, (prospects), and try to win with what they have.

[Inside Pitch]

11 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Technically the start of 2023 is three seasons away, it's only three years away from right now. Still, point taken.

I should have worded it better but those will be their stated (season), age for the entirety of that year... not just the start of it.  We have yet to play in any of 20, 21, 22, 23.   So, four seasons worth of play.

I wouldn't worry about Stassi being listed -- they essentially take the guys in the system including MLB, factor in control and try to build the roster with the most talented players.  Our catching situation in the minors is easily the worst part of the system.

 

[Tank]

18 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Stassi at C is disturbing. But they can always throw money at JT Realmuto or in two seasons Willson Contreras. They could always draft a college catcher and hope he's ready by 2023.

yeah, i'd be very surprised if stassi is still an angel in '23, let alone our starting catcher. 

[Torridd]

On 1/19/2020 at 6:39 PM, mymerlincat said:

I think it’s become apparent that unless we develop one ourselves, which isn’t likely considering who we have in the system, we’re going to be forced to offer more than most of us, and the front office are comfortable with, in either a trade, or by signing a free agent.  Which overpay would you rather make?

I think it depends on the quality of the players in our system, but I tend to. lean toward the money.

[Rally Gorilla]

 

8 hours ago, Stradling said:

Fixed

Ok, I'm not a Dipoto fan...at all.    But it's taken more than his ineptness and self-importance to get us into a hole.   Arte had a huge role in pushing for big splash signings for the marketing value.....getting a $3B TV contract.....then  getting ridiculously rigid about his self-imposed budget, forcing his GM's into all kinds of stupid penny saving moves.     And it isn't Dipoto's fault we sold our 2019 number one draft pick  (15th overall) for a one-time savings of $12.6M.      

[Rally Gorilla]

8 hours ago, DMVol said:

We pretty much have.....Pujols and Hamilton were hard lessons for Arte....I guess you would have to include Upton in the discussion but Rendon is really the first significant FA since Pujols and Hamilton....

 

IMHO, the jury is still out on the Upton signing.    He just put up a 3.8 WAR in 2018.   I'm really hoping for another nice season for him in 2020.   And I like the Rendon signing....seems like we did much better compared to the Donaldson deal and I cant' wait to see a real deal 3B again.   

But, the penny pinching continues....selling our number one draft pick for $12.6M is a crime.   And, in the big picture of things,  it would just not have cost that much to bring in one more mid-tier pitcher on a fairly short contract....but we passed on so many of them.

[DMVol]

58 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

...selling our number one draft pick for $12.6M is a crime.   And, in the big picture of things,  it would just not have cost that much to bring in one more mid-tier pitcher on a fairly short contract....but we passed on so many of them.

I wasn’t comfortable with it either....if Wilson turns in to a good player, give the Giants credit for grabbing a bargain.....

[Lou]

If he's lucky, Wilson will be a bench player in the majors. 

For the Tigers. 

[Rally Gorilla]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

If he's lucky, Wilson will be a bench player in the majors. 

For the Tigers. 

Either way you slice it, we wasted a 15th overall pick.

[DMVol]

6 minutes ago, Lou said:

If he's lucky, Wilson will be a bench player in the majors. 

For the Tigers. 

6 months later, not a real shining example of our scouting prowess....

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Either way you slice it, we wasted a 15th overall pick.

Which is better than wasting a 15th pick and $13M

[Lou]

1 minute ago, DMVol said:

6 months later, not a real shining example of our scouting prowess....

And then there are guys like Adell, Marsh, Canning, etc. 

Every team misses on first-round picks.