Would you rather overpay in trade assets or in free agent money/term for a frontline starter?

[Stradling]

Just now, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

If we could get Clevenger say goodbye to Marsh and even Jackson.

Sign me up.  Problem is he’s going to cost Adell and Canning 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Sign me up.  Problem is he’s going to cost Adell and Canning 

Not so sure about Adell , but l would have to think real hard about Marsh and Canning...

You can't get quality starting pitching without a little pain...

Edited January 20, 2020 by Ace-Of-Diamonds

[Pancake Bear]

32 minutes ago, Second Base said:

As I said, overpay in quantity over quality. Like Jordyn Adams, Luis Rengifo, Trent Deveaux, Patrick Sandoval, Hector Yan, and Aaron Hernandez. 

Six prospects is a haul and can change the entire direction of a system. Realistically, from that crop of six, you're getting a starting outfielder, starting infielder, back end starting pitcher, pinch running 4th outfielder and a couple of hard throwing relievers. 

Not a single one will likely be better than Clevinger, who figures to be worth 5 wins above replacement annually, but collectively, that return should be worth around 7-8 wins annually. 

You’d be hard pressed to find a GM who would take quantity over quality for a top asset. One five win player is worth a lot more than a handful of players, regardless of whether they combine for more wins. 7-8 wins for 6 guys is basically what you get in the bargain bin for peanuts every offseason. 

[Stradling]

Yep

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

28 minutes ago, RBM said:

Well, it depends on the timing and the length of contract/control. I would not have overpaid for Cole at 9/324. I would not trade Adell, Marsh or Canning for 1 or 2 years of a Mike Clevinger, Matthew Boyd or Robbie Ray.

I would have paid Cole Hamels 1/18. I think he was the perfect bridge to the development of our young arms.  I would have paid Alex Wood 1/8 for the same reason but with reduced expectations.

3 yrs for Clevenger

[ScottT]

I wish the Angels would draft and develop someone that becomes a really good pitcher. 

[floplag]

4 hours ago, Lou said:

He's pitched more than 126 innings once in his career. 

This
You dont overpay for this.
If there is any question at all in terms of innings or quality, you dont overpay. 

[Tank]

2 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

Well, gotbeer can.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

1 hour ago, RBM said:

You're right. I thought it was two. Thanks.

I still don't think I would give up six or seven years of Adell, Marsh or Canning for Clevinger. Tough call.

What would you do?

Marsh and Canning for Clevinger, maybe

[ScottT]

Overpaying is a bad strategy. Especially when you are coming off a 90 loss season 

Edited January 20, 2020 by ScottT
Awty grab hull i

[Second Base]

2 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

You’d be hard pressed to find a GM who would take quantity over quality for a top asset. One five win player is worth a lot more than a handful of players, regardless of whether they combine for more wins. 7-8 wins for 6 guys is basically what you get in the bargain bin for peanuts every offseason. 

So you're saying Jordyn Adams, Luis Rengifo and Patrick Sandoval have as much value as a random bargain bin player? 

Because if that's what you're saying then I think we can stop talking right here. 

[Pancake Bear]

57 minutes ago, Second Base said:

So you're saying Jordyn Adams, Luis Rengifo and Patrick Sandoval have as much value as a random bargain bin player? 

Because if that's what you're saying then I think we can stop talking right here. 

I didn’t say that. You said the 6 players you named were worth 7-8 wins annually. That’s...not much. Certainly not enough to justify even considering trading a legitimate 2 (borderline 1) who is controlled for three years. 

[Claude]

12 hours ago, Stradling said:

33 pitchers pitched over 180 innings last year.  So one a team.  That number will go down going forward.  

The true workhorses of baseball are evaporated. Gone are the days of the Fernando Valbuena’s. The true game of baseball has changed so much it’s hardly worth the price of admission. Now for your ticket you get an opener, then 4 to 5 innings of a starter with a pitch count. Most of the pitching records will never be broken. I miss the days when starters took pride in complete games. 

[Stradling]

The reason true workhorse are gone is because of your example, Fernando.  Dude was shit at age 30.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Marsh and Canning for Clevinger, maybe

The Angels would do that. The Indians wouldn’t. 

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The Angels would do that. The Indians wouldn’t. 

so you're implying that it would cost Adell and Marsh and Canning?  

I would like to take this time to remind people that Clevinger pitched 126 innings last year 

[Jeff Fletcher]

24 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

so you're implying that it would cost Adell and Marsh and Canning?  

I would like to take this time to remind people that Clevinger pitched 126 innings last year 

Adell plus one (Rengifo, Canning, Sandoval, etc).
 

I think people don’t appreciate the value of 3 years control.

Here’s some homework: make a list of every above average major leaguer who has been traded with 3 years of control in the past 5 years. 

[Hubs]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Adell plus one (Rengifo, Canning, Sandoval, etc).
 

I think people don’t appreciate the value of 3 years control.

Here’s some homework: make a list of every above average major leaguer who has been traded with 3 years of control in the past 5 years. 

It's why I think the Angels won't trade for him. It's an expensive trade for a guy who while healthy was dominant. The Angels need health.

[Jeff Fletcher]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Adell plus one (Rengifo, Canning, Sandoval, etc).
 

I think people don’t appreciate the value of 3 years control.

Here’s some homework: make a list of every above average major leaguer who has been traded with 3 years of control in the past 5 years. 

I went back and found only 3 in the last 2 years.

Edwin Diaz and Robinson Cano were in the same deal, and although Cano was still above average, he had a huge contract, which the Mets had to take to get Diaz.

The other was Jean Segura, for whom the Phillies gave up Carlos Santana and JP Crawford, one of their top prospects. 

All three were traded by the Mariners, who were not trying to win the following season. The Indians are still trying to win. 

Before that, I think you have to go back to Yelich, also traded by a team not trying to win.

[popo85]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

so you're implying that it would cost Adell and Marsh and Canning?  

I would like to take this time to remind people that Clevinger pitched 126 innings last year 

Yeah there’s no way we give Adell along with Canning 

[rafibomb]

21 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I went back and found only 3 in the last 2 years.

Edwin Diaz and Robinson Cano were in the same deal, and although Cano was still above average, he had a huge contract, which the Mets had to take to get Diaz.

The other was Jean Segura, for whom the Phillies gave up Carlos Santana and JP Crawford, one of their top prospects. 

All three were traded by the Mariners, who were not trying to win the following season. The Indians are still trying to win. 

Before that, I think you have to go back to Yelich, also traded by a team not trying to win.

of course it was Dipoto

[Angel Oracle]

14 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

You’d be hard pressed to find a GM who would take quantity over quality for a top asset. One five win player is worth a lot more than a handful of players, regardless of whether they combine for more wins. 7-8 wins for 6 guys is basically what you get in the bargain bin for peanuts every offseason. 

Best example of all time (in best Oracle):  The NFL's Chicago Cardinals had a dynamic RB named Ollie Matson in the 1950's.   Before the 1959 season, they traded him to the Rams for 11 players.   One problem for the Cardinals, most of those 11 players were in the words of the team's trainer, absolute garbage.   

[Angel Oracle]

13 hours ago, floplag said:

This
You dont overpay for this.
If there is any question at all in terms of innings or quality, you dont overpay. 

And Clevinger's delivery makes him more vulnerable to injury.    Just develop pitching better on the farm.   

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Adell plus one (Rengifo, Canning, Sandoval, etc).

That would be painful for sure but you are getting proven talent in return. Tuff decision, not sure what I would do in Eppler's place. I'm sure he would be highly criticized at first but if we win a championship? 

[budice0]

Think its quite clear to be comptetive anytime soon they need to do whatever they can to get ahold of MLB-level pitching.  They've done so much to shore up the batting order.  The Rotation is starved and Ohtani likely shouldn't be Pitching.  Most of the overpriced talent has been hitters.  They need to flip the script and invest in a Rotation to be anywhere comptitive with the Top Teams in the League.  Mid-level starters, aged-older veteran pitchers whatever they can get their hands on.  It is simply a well-known fact to many and why this thread exists.  Has been for several years now imho.  I don't like the severe  lack of effort to obtain Pitching, feels like an open wound that's not being treated.

Battles are largely won before theyre fought.  At best we're 2nd Fiddle Overall to the Astros in the Division, much less the AL.  

Really want the Angels to live up to their Payroll and represent with the Best Teams in MLB