Does every other team have at least one starting pitcher that is better than anyone on the Angels?

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

From what I read on here Bundy is pretty good. It’s going to be a treat watching him this year. 

You haven’t read that here. 

[Chuck]

Just now, mymerlincat said:

That really isn’t a rotation of #3s though, Bundy is ideally a #5, Teheran a #4 (he didn’t even make the initial playoff roster last year), Canning might be a #3 if he progresses, but there’s also the possibility of him and Sandoval having Barria-esque sophomore slumps.  Heaney can be a #3 if healthy, but will he be?

My point is the Angels in terms of talent there was a bunch of #3's & 4's across the board for the 2002 staff. 

I believe Bundy and Teheran are going to be really good this season for the Angels as far as ERA, QS's and innings pitched. 

Canning and Heaney are wild cards since they both have really good stuff. I also believe Sandoval is going to have a breakout year and he could be our 2002 John Lackey, much like Canning could be. 

[Stradling]

45 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Looks like we’ve got an earlier contender for stupidest AW thread 2020. 

Thought I would make it easier for the OP to understand.  

[Pancake Bear]

I lost you when you said Boyd. 

[UndertheHalo]

17 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

You seem awfully upset about this topic, so how about you offer something productive to the thread?

I am very upset.  I cannot respond until I finish huffing and puffing into my paper bag. 

[Chuck]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Thought I would make it easier for the OP to understand.  

To be fair, I don't think it's a stupid thread. The point is well taken, but luckily there are other areas of baseball than just having a really good ACE. 

[mmc]

2 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

I lost you when you said Boyd. 

Lower xFIP than any starter on the team.

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

To be fair, I don't think it's a stupid thread. The point is well taken, but luckily there are other areas of baseball than just having a really good ACE. 

Right it is a perfectly fine thread that is absolutely up for debate.  But if we are going to talk about production, then as bad as some of our guys were last year, they were better than Kluber, you know if we are talking about production.  Now if we are going to go back two years from when Kluber was really damn good, then we can put Ohtani, Teheran and Heaney above a few on this list for how they pitched in 2018.  So the thread is fine as long as we all know what the parameters are.  

We could start a thread that says, “how many rotations have a starter with the upside of Ohtani”. 

[Pancake Bear]

4 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Lower xFIP than any starter on the team.

That’s because they loved his K numbers last season. He’s a guy whose ERA doesn’t match the hype. Until it does, he’s a mid-4 ERA innings eater. Basically, he’s Dylan Bundy. 

[UndertheHalo]

The thread is stupid because it’s wrong.  

[mmc]

19 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

My point is the Angels in terms of talent there was a bunch of #3's & 4's across the board for the 2002 staff. 

I believe Bundy and Teheran are going to be really good this season for the Angels as far as ERA, QS's and innings pitched. 

Canning and Heaney are wild cards since they both have really good stuff. I also believe Sandoval is going to have a breakout year and he could be our 2002 John Lackey, much like Canning could be. 

I just don’t think it’s enough Chuck, if you look at the 4 teams in the ALDS last season, for example, you got the Astros with Cole, Verlander, and Greinke, the Yankees with Paxton , Severino, and Tanaka, the Rays with Glasnow, Snell, and Morton, and the Twins with Berrios, Odorizzi, and Gibson, and I just don’t see a way that we are competitive next season.  

[Stradling]

Canning and Boyd had remarkably similar ERAs, FIP and WHIP last season.  If healthy I’d have to think Canning will improve.  

[mmc]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Right it is a perfectly fine thread that is absolutely up for debate.  But if we are going to talk about production, then as bad as some of our guys were last year, they were better than Kluber, you know if we are talking about production.  Now if we are going to go back two years from when Kluber was really damn good, then we can put Ohtani, Teheran and Heaney above a few on this list for how they pitched in 2018.  So the thread is fine as long as we all know what the parameters are.  

We could start a thread that says, “how many rotations have a starter with the upside of Ohtani”. 

Go right ahead.

[Lou]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

The thread is stupid because it’s wrong.  

[Stradling]

Just now, Vladdylonglegs said:

There have been 2 entire threads dedicated to it. 

Ok, I will wait for you to quote a thread talking about Bundy being “pretty good”.  

[Lou]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Canning and Boyd had remarkably similar ERAs, FIP and WHIP last season.  If healthy I’d have to think Canning will improve.  

xFIP, damnit!

[Second Base]

26 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

My point is the Angels in terms of talent there was a bunch of #3's & 4's across the board for the 2002 staff. 

I believe Bundy and Teheran are going to be really good this season for the Angels as far as ERA, QS's and innings pitched. 

Canning and Heaney are wild cards since they both have really good stuff. I also believe Sandoval is going to have a breakout year and he could be our 2002 John Lackey, much like Canning could be. 

That's a response that always irks me. In 2002, their only competition for the division was the A's. The rest of the division didn't mount much of an attack. 

Plus the starters in 2002 ate innings

And in 2020, the Astros, A's and Rangers all three have a better rotation than the Angels and the Angels rotation isn't covering nearly as many innings as 2002. 

These two aren't compatible. The 2020 Angels have a MUCH harder road to the playoffs than the 2002 Angels. And subsequently, will need a MUCH better rotation than the 2002 Angels. 

There's no way around it, in itself to make the playoffs, it's VERY likely the Angels will need a mid rotation starter. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Second Base

[mmc]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The thread is stupid because it’s wrong.  

It’s almost as if you can disagree with the topic without whining.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The original Bundy thread and the Bundy highlights thread. The mental gymnastics in those are Olympic level. 

Ok, so no posts about him being “pretty good”. Cool.  

[Chuck]

22 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The original Bundy thread and the Bundy highlights thread. The mental gymnastics in those are Olympic level. 

Highlighting a players positives is not the same as saying he's going to be great. 

I think on a different team with better defenders, better ballpark and a different coaching staff, Bundy will have his best season yet. 

[Angelsjunky]

25 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

I just don’t think it’s enough Chuck, if you look at the 4 teams in the ALDS last season, for example, you got the Astros with Cole, Verlander, and Greinke, the Yankees with Paxton , Severino, and Tanaka, the Rays with Glasnow, Snell, and Morton, and the Twins with Berrios, Odorizzi, and Gibson, and I just don’t see a way that we are competitive next season.  

There's a difference between "being competitive" and "dominant."

Being competitive, in my mind, is an above average team--85+ wins--that has at least an outside chance of a playoff berth.

Being dominant is a great team--95+ wins--and a clear favorite for a playoff berth, if not their division.

I would say that the Angels are competitive, but not dominant. Let's not conflate the two, which is often what happens in such discussions. The Astros and Yankees are dominant; the Rays and Twins are competitive. The Angels might not be as good as either, but they're close.

A lot of people seem to be upset that the Angels aren't going into 2020 as a clearly dominant team. But that seems a tall order considering not only last year's record, but the simple fact that there are only a handful of dominant teams in the majors. I mean, how entitled are we? 

At the least we should feel heartened that the Angels are going into 2020 as a more competitive team than they've been in years. They have one of the best offenses in the majors, excellent defense, and a solid bullpen. The rotation is mediocre, but could end up being good enough that the strengths of the team should at least make the season interesting.

 

[mmc]

34 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok, so no posts about him being “pretty good”. Cool.  

 

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

 

So one person asked the question.  No one said he’s better than we think. And everyone else answering that person by saying no he is what he is. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, mymerlincat said:

That really isn’t a rotation of #3s though, Bundy is ideally a #5, Teheran a #4 (he didn’t even make the initial playoff roster last year), Canning might be a #3 if he progresses, but there’s also the possibility of him and Sandoval having Barria-esque sophomore slumps.  Heaney can be a #3 if healthy, but will he be?

This is 100% subjective and relies on there to be some definitive opinion of what a 1-5 is -- there isn't.   If you base it on what the historical definitions used to be then I'd agree but we'd only be half right.  

Historically speaking an Ace was a #1 pitcher that beats other numbers #1s every 2 out of 3 times.  -- we don't have anyone that's proven to be at this level.
1s were considered to be guys capable of well above league average run prevention and  200+ innings -- Teheran has done this, but he's not that pitcher anymore.
2s were anyone capable of above league average run prevention and 180+ innings -- that 180+ figure likely rules out all the Angels SPs
3s were anyone capable of league average run prevention and 160-180 innings. -- Teheran and Heaney have done this, still likely can.
4s and everyone else were just guys that could eat innings but typically were no better than league average run prevention, most fell short of that.

Using those historical definitions the Angels rotation is all over the place.  Their most talented pitcher has no record of being able to pile on innings, the upside is huge the track record is suspect at best.  Teheran is easily their most established/reliable SP and he's anything but a sure bet to be anything but a 3 in the AL.  Heaney might be the surest thing and hes a constant injury risk, so again... hes no sure bet.   Canning and Sandoval are total wild cards, they seem capable of turning in league average or better run prevention numbers but neither guy should be counted on for more than 140-150 innings this year.  Bundy will give them innings but there seems to be a lot of wishing involved as far run prevention goes.

Given the workload concerns they really almost would be better off using some hybrid 6 man rotation and to really do that right they would need to add another arm (IMO).   At this point the best we can hope for is a rotation full of guys that get to somewhere around 150 innings and provide league average run prevention, which would fall short of traditional 3's but a world better than we have seen since the days of Weaver, Santana, Haren, etc....

[robblin17]

7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So one person asked the question.  No one said he’s better than we think. And everyone else answering that person by saying no he is what he is. 

Can’t wait to bump that thread.