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stormngt

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44 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Sure, my point was simply that targeting 970 innings is unrealistic since no one has that. Few teams even come close. 

Sure it’s not realistic, but I think the point is that those are innings that are available to starting pitchers given a combination of health and effectiveness. The 200 innings I outlined for Barria, Suarez and Peters will only come from them if they are effective, the shortfall will land on the bullpen.

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5 minutes ago, Nolan Fregosi said:

Sadly, when a franchise that needs pitching opts to NOT draft pitching for YEARS, it’s pretty difficult to rely on a young crew coming to save the day any time soon.  If it’s NOT via free agency (and we know it’s not now)...you trade.  
 

If Adell gets you Clevinger - you  do it...if Marsh plus gets you Gray...you do it.  This club is meant to win now...or next...not in five years!  Already wasted Trout’s contributions the last half decade.  
 

Adell could be the next Braandon Wood...no one knows.  I’m willing to risk for a couple of top rotation guys.

suck it up...and do it Eppler! 

Oh boy.  Looks like norther got the bot up and going.  

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7 minutes ago, Nolan Fregosi said:

Sadly, when a franchise that needs pitching opts to NOT draft pitching for YEARS, it’s pretty difficult to rely on a young crew coming to save the day any time soon.  If it’s NOT via free agency (and we know it’s not now)...you trade.  
 

If Adell gets you Clevinger - you  do it...if Marsh plus gets you Gray...you do it.  This club is meant to win now...or next...not in five years!  Already wasted Trout’s contributions the last half decade.  
 

Adell could be the next Braandon Wood...no one knows.  I’m willing to risk for a couple of top rotation guys.

suck it up...and do it Eppler! 

While I don't agree with the trade portion necessarily, I do agree that this issue is as bad as it is because Eppler hasn't drafted pitching the way he's needed to. Will Wilson instead of Jackson Rutledge hurt. I'm not disappointed in the Adams selection at all, but when you already have Adell and Marsh in the system, and Brady Singer is still sitting on the draft board.... It stings a little. 

This would be a short term problem if you had Brady Singer in AAA and Jackson Rutledge in AA in 2020. 

Could you imagine in 2021 rolling with a rotation that includes Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Singer and Rutledge? Incredible upside. All you'd need to do is get an inning eater to stabilize the staff, and then just let those upside arms develop. 2022 and beyond would be ridiculous. Anything they get from Soriano and Rodriguez would just be gravy.

But as it stands, this is a long term issue. In order for the rotation to be good long term, Canning, Sandoval, Rodriguez and Soriano all have to work out. They'd be fine if they supplemented it with upside from free agency or trade, but do far Eppler has failed to do so, though when teams are asking Brandon Marsh for their questionable starters, it's hard to blame him. He does get the blame in free agency though.

Eppler on the whole has been a good drafter, but there's a ton of room for improvement in pitching.

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1 hour ago, Nolan Fregosi said:

Sadly, when a franchise that needs pitching opts to NOT draft pitching for YEARS, it’s pretty difficult to rely on a young crew coming to save the day any time soon.  If it’s NOT via free agency (and we know it’s not now)...you trade.  
 

If Adell gets you Clevinger - you  do it...if Marsh plus gets you Gray...you do it.  This club is meant to win now...or next...not in five years!  Already wasted Trout’s contributions the last half decade.  
 

Adell could be the next Braandon Wood...no one knows.  I’m willing to risk for a couple of top rotation guys.

suck it up...and do it Eppler! 

my only response is if you want one season of making the playoffs followed by years of losing, then do this plan.

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1 hour ago, Second Base said:

While I don't agree with the trade portion necessarily, I do agree that this issue is as bad as it is because Eppler hasn't drafted pitching the way he's needed to. Will Wilson instead of Jackson Rutledge hurt. I'm not disappointed in the Adams selection at all, but when you already have Adell and Marsh in the system, and Brady Singer is still sitting on the draft board.... It stings a little. 

This would be a short term problem if you had Brady Singer in AAA and Jackson Rutledge in AA in 2020. 

Could you imagine in 2021 rolling with a rotation that includes Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Singer and Rutledge? Incredible upside. All you'd need to do is get an inning eater to stabilize the staff, and then just let those upside arms develop. 2022 and beyond would be ridiculous. Anything they get from Soriano and Rodriguez would just be gravy.

But as it stands, this is a long term issue. In order for the rotation to be good long term, Canning, Sandoval, Rodriguez and Soriano all have to work out. They'd be fine if they supplemented it with upside from free agency or trade, but do far Eppler has failed to do so, though when teams are asking Brandon Marsh for their questionable starters, it's hard to blame him. He does get the blame in free agency though.

Eppler on the whole has been a good drafter, but there's a ton of room for improvement in pitching.

Eppler even seems good at drafting relief arms, but not starting pitchers. Seems like the scouting reports on most pitchers he drafts say, “ he projects to be a decent arm in the pen.”  I think I can count fingers on one hand how many of his picks say he projects as a top to mid rotation arm.

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6 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

Sure, my point was simply that targeting 970 innings is unrealistic since no one has that. Few teams even come close. 

That’s kind of the point. The fact that I can even get close to an unobtainable goal with realistic inning targets for the pitchers we have is my argument against the doom and gloom about us having no pitching.

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1 hour ago, Nolan Fregosi said:

Years of losing by adding two top of the rotation arms?  please explain how the staff as currently manned (with Adell in the future) gets you to the playoffs long term?  Unless Adell and Marsh can pitch, nothing changes 

 

 

it's called recent history. what you described is exactly jerry dipoto's strategy. dump the entire farm system into trades to help the major league squad. the problem is that there is no one left on the farm to help the major league squad when needed. you want the angels to be top heavy, when talent and depth are what wins championships. we all want the angels to win, but it's important to understand how that's done. robbing peter to pay paul is a shit strategy and i'd be happy to never see the angels do it again.

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6 hours ago, RBM said:

Yes. The constant here is Eppler does not draft pitchers early. In the first three rounds of his first four drafts he has chosen a pitcher with only three of the possible twelve picks and NEVER in the first round.

He chose Hernandez and Kochanowicz with 3rd round picks and Canning with a 2nd round pick. The obvious problem with his strategy is when you select your first pitcher with picks #95-#125 it is highly unlikely you will ever be in a position to draft and develop a #1 or #2 starting pitcher. So you are forced into FA or a trade to find top of the order arms...and that hasn't worked out for us.

It will be interesting to see how many of the 1st and 2nd round picks he passed on these last four years become frontline starting pitchers. And maybe his strategy will change if he gets another contract. The farm was in such bad shape when he took over that it seems his plan was to get athletes in the first two rounds and then stock up on arms in rounds 3-10. And now, in year five, he may choose a starting pitcher with that #10 pick. Maybe a lefty college arm like Asa Lacy or Garrett Crochet.

If Lacy is still on the board at 10, I would be thrilled.

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1 hour ago, Second Base said:

If Lacy is still on the board at 10, I would be thrilled.

Only allowed FIVE hits, and K’d over THIRTEEN, per nine innings in 2019 in a brutal conference like the SEC?

If he repeats that in 2020, then yep, very thrilled if seeing him still undrafted by pick #10.

Edited by Angel Oracle
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My favorite part is the outrage when we didn’t draft another dude that no one has ever heard of and obviously the excitement over who we draft, even though no one has ever heard of that person either.  Either way, it will be a mistake or it won’t, without a doubt most definitely, probably.  

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10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

My favorite part is the outrage when we didn’t draft another dude that no one has ever heard of and obviously the excitement over who we draft, even though no one has ever heard of that person either.  Either way, it will be a mistake or it won’t, without a doubt most definitely, probably.  

In hindsight there will always be someone else we should have drafted. 

If only we drafted Kevin McBaconator who was still on the board after we took Kyle Kyel.

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11 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

In hindsight there will always be someone else we should have drafted. 

If only we drafted Kevin McBaconator who was still on the board after we took Kyle Kyel.

Still holding out hope we’ll find Clyde MacBigBat.

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So...in your scenario, we should endure four years of rebuild, waste more Trout years?  

that’s better than admitting the mistakes and trading unproven outfield or infield surplus assets to become competitive more quickly?  that does not sound appealing or why they bring Joe Madden and Rendon in...but ok 

if that’s the case, trade Trout and begin the rebuild.  Ludicrous 

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5 minutes ago, Nolan Fregosi said:

So...in your scenario, we should endure four years of rebuild, waste more Trout years?  

that’s better than admitting the mistakes and trading unproven outfield or infield surplus assets to become competitive more quickly?  that does not sound appealing or why they bring Joe Madden and Rendon in...but ok 

if that’s the case, trade Trout and begin the rebuild.  Ludicrous 

Lol @ Trading Trout

I actually think you have a fair point. They obviously brought in Maddon and signed Rendon with the intention of competing now. But Adell and Marsh to a lesser extent are a part of the plan to compete. Saying "Adell could become Brandon Wood" is just...no. Stop. The pitcher we bring in a trade for Adell could end up breaking their arm.

The fact is, there's no piece currently available that's worth Adell. You say Clevinger, but they wanted Adell AND another player. What if that other player is Canning? Do you do that for a pitcher who is 29 and has only pitched one season of more than 120 innings? 

I want to compete in 2020, and I believe the Angels have done the best they possibly could in making that happen (outside of adding one more pitcher, which I think will happen). But I also want to compete in 2021, 2022, 2023, and beyond. Trading Adell or Marsh for a pitcher with 2-3 years of control doesn't help make that happen.

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17 minutes ago, Nolan Fregosi said:

So...in your scenario, we should endure four years of rebuild, waste more Trout years?  

that’s better than admitting the mistakes and trading unproven outfield or infield surplus assets to become competitive more quickly?  that does not sound appealing or why they bring Joe Madden and Rendon in...but ok 

if that’s the case, trade Trout and begin the rebuild.  Ludicrous 

Who here wants to waste four more years?  No one.  This has been a rebuild over the time Eppler has been here.  Some might call it something different, but it is absolutely a rebuild.  As for trading Trout, haha haha.  I agree, you are being ludicrous.  Once again, it has been a rebuild.  

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1 minute ago, RBM said:

My concern is not who. As clearly stated above it's more about what. The teams who have young, controllable top of the rotation arms are the teams who draft pitchers in the first round. 

We drafted Newcomb in the first round. He's now a 27 year old reliever.

I'm hoping there's a good college starter available this year at #10 but I'd also hope Eppler doesn't reach and draft a pitcher just because. 

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Just now, RBM said:

My concern is not who. As clearly stated above it's more about what. The teams who have young, controllable top of the rotation arms are the teams who draft pitchers in the first round. 

Yep.  But at the same time outside of catcher is there a more risky way to drafting than drafting a pitcher.  It’s a catch 22.   If you draft best player available then at least you can trade that player, in theory, for pitching that has made it.  But to make those trades it requires layers of depth which we are starting to build.  I completely understand that belief but it’s not like it’s the only way.  It’s very very easy to be critical of the Wilson pick but mostly because we don’t get to see the thought process behind it.  

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