What would Robbie Ray and Boyd realistically cost?

[tchula]

So the fact that the Indians wanted Marsh and another top ten prospect for Kluber blows my mind.  Organizations will always ask for more than their trade chip is worth.  GM's in this instance act like agents. Obviously, Ray would be cheaper because he has one year left, but if the Angels traded for him would be able to attach a qualifying offer to him next year?   But what in terms of prospect capitol do you think Ray and Boyd would actually cost?  A

 

 

[Dtwncbad]

Everyone keeps saying it was Marsh and another top 10 prospect.  Top 10 Angel prospect, not top baseball prospect.  Big difference.

It kind of blows my mind that people think you can get a pitcher like Kluber without trading something of actual value.

Did we really expect Cleveland to trade Kluber for less than one top 100 prospect (Marsh) and another body not in the top 100 (whomever the second Angel top 10 was)?

Hey maybe the Angels should have just asked them to throw in Bauer to even it out.

 

[totdprods]

11 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Everyone keeps saying it was Marsh and another top 10 prospect.  Top 10 Angel prospect, not top baseball prospect.  Big difference.

It kind of blows my mind that people think you can get a pitcher like Kluber without trading something of actual value.

Did we really expect Cleveland to trade Kluber for less than one top 100 prospect (Marsh) and another body not in the top 100 (whomever the second Angel top 10 was)?

Hey maybe the Angels should have just asked them to throw in Bauer to even it out.

 

I feel like I’ve told you once before that Bauer was traded...

[Dtwncbad]

My bad.  But maybe Cleveland could just ask The Reds to give him back for like a top 1000 prospect.

I had to come back and edit this.  They probably would have to add a second top 1000 prospect.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Dtwncbad

[CanadianHalo]

Gray > Boyd > Ray

[AngelsFaninGA]

Definitely wouldn't give up Marsh for Boyd or Ray

[wopphil]

I would include Marsh for Boyd. I'd be willing to include Marsh, plus one of Suarez/Sandoval, plus just about any other prospect outside our top 5 or 6. 

[Cdaniel]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Everyone keeps saying it was Marsh and another top 10 prospect.  Top 10 Angel prospect, not top baseball prospect.  Big difference.

It kind of blows my mind that people think you can get a pitcher like Kluber without trading something of actual value.

Did we really expect Cleveland to trade Kluber for less than one top 100 prospect (Marsh) and another body not in the top 100 (whomever the second Angel top 10 was)?

Hey maybe the Angels should have just asked them to throw in Bauer to even it out.

 

The Rangers got Kluber for their 30th ranked prospect - not even in their top 15.  Without looking it up I think our farm system is rated pretty similar if not better than the Rangers.

[Chuck]

1 hour ago, CanadianHalo said:

Gray > Boyd > Ray

People keep mentioning Jon Gray but have the Rockies said he's available? 

[Jeff Fletcher]

About 5 days ago, I was told the ask for Ray was “higher than Kluber.” I’ve also heard Arizona is “tough to deal with.”

I would trade one of Rengifo/Suarez and one 10+ prospect for him, but I don’t know what it would really take. 

[Angelsfan1984]

2 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

People keep mentioning Jon Gray but have the Rockies said he's available? 

Everyone and everything in this world has a price.

[Angelsfan1984]

1 minute ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

About 5 days ago, I was told the ask for Ray was “higher than Kluber.” I’ve also heard Arizona is “tough to deal with.”

I would trade one of Rengifo/Suarez and one 10+ prospect for him, but I don’t know what it would really take. 

Like you mentioned though, teams value players differently. So, based on the relatively low return that Cleveland received a higher cost may or may not necessarily be that high.

[angelsnationtalk]

7 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Like you mentioned though, teams value players differently. So, based on the relatively low return that Cleveland received a higher cost may or may not necessarily be that high.

We might think it was a low return for Cleveland but they love Clase. Just like you said, teams value players differently. Clase can be one hell of a closer in the near future and he's only 21.

[Erstad Grit]

I feel like a year ago Boyd was hugely underrated and not he's extremely overrated

[floplag]

I frankly think were basing the Kluber thing a lot of this of bullshit rumors over facts.  I find it nearly impossible to believe that Cle insisted on Marsh plus another of our top 10, and the settled for what they got.  Im sure the conversation started that way, everyone had a good laugh then they sat down to an actual conversation. 

Where i am perplexed on how we couldnt have matched it somehow considering they are also still in the market for a 2B based on published reports, and how the in the end got so little for him.

As for Ray, Boyd, Gray ... were going to end up getting fleeced at least partially if were going to make one of these trades right now, its why im kinda of against them.   #1 these are not aces even if they would be ours, and #2 everyone knows were desperate at this point so we will overpay in prospects, you can book that for nearly any of them. 

We need to sign Kuechel to at least get that done and take away part of the desperation, although at this point i dont think thats what Eppler wants, if it was it would have been done, so once again it would seem were all kinda assuming a bunch of shit we dont know.  Can anyone think of a single logical reason that deal isnt done by know if both sides wanted it?  i can name only one, hes waiting to see who else we get. 

[kevinb]

34 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

We might think it was a low return for Cleveland but they love Clase. Just like you said, teams value players differently. Clase can be one hell of a closer in the near future and he's only 21.

I thought relief pitchers were a dime a dozen. That they don’t have any real value because every year is a crap shoot with them?

[angelsnationtalk]

4 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I thought relief pitchers were a dime a dozen. That they don’t have any real value because every year is a crap shoot with them?

Probably not when you're 21 years old and can hit 102mph with good cut action and potential to develop a good slider.

[UndertheHalo]

4 minutes ago, floplag said:

I frankly think were basing a lot of this of bullshit rumors over facts.  I find it nearly impossible to believe that Cle insisted on Marsh plus another of our top 10, and the settled for what they got.  Im sure the conversation started that way, everyone had a good laugh then they sat down to an actual conversation. 

Where i am perplexed on how we couldnt have matched it somehow considering they are also still in the market for a 2B based on published reports, and how the in the end got so little for him.

I don’t think it’s that hard imagine it.  They wanted a major league outfielder.  The Angels said no to giving up any of theirs so Cleveland asked for a good prospect that they liked.  Regardless of how highly touted a prospect is.  They aren’t major leaguers.  Anyway, I’m not saying I think Cleveland did well for Kluber.  But I understand why they would have asked for Marsh.  And obviously why that didn’t work out.  
 

important to remember that Cleveland actually needed Deshields.  And when it came down to Clase, they probably internally viewed him as more valuable to them then like Michael Hermosillo.  

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

32 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

I feel like a year ago Boyd was hugely underrated and not he's extremely overrated

Boyd is overrated because of his first half of 2019.  Aside from his 3 years of remaining club control and a high K rate he's been below average for his career and never posted an ERA below 4.39.  Some people will point to some advanced stats that say he's better than his stats and that could be true but he hasn't put it together consistently.  For the right price I'd take him on the Angels but I don't think that's realistic given his 3 years of club control.  Pitching is always at a premium and Detroit sucks something awful so I think they move him at a point but they don't have to now and they've got the leverage.    

[Jeff Fletcher]

4 minutes ago, floplag said:

I frankly think were basing a lot of this of bullshit rumors over facts.  I find it nearly impossible to believe that Cle insisted on Marsh plus another of our top 10, and the settled for what they got.  Im sure the conversation started that way, everyone had a good laugh then they sat down to an actual conversation. 

Where i am perplexed on how we couldnt have matched it somehow considering they are also still in the market for a 2B based on published reports, and how the in the end got so little for him.

I also found it hard to believe but I am confident in the source who told me, or I wouldn’t have reported it.

It wasn’t just the Angels and Rangers trying to get him. There were 4 or 5 teams, at least, trying to get him. So I find it more plausible that one team had a surprisingly high opinion of Clase than 5 teams all had that low of an opinion of Kluber. 
 

Or maybe something troubling showed up in Kluber’s medicals, which would also explain it. No one has told me that though. 
 

[floplag]

15 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I also found it hard to believe but I am confident in the source who told me, or I wouldn’t have reported it.

It wasn’t just the Angels and Rangers trying to get him. There were 4 or 5 teams, at least, trying to get him. So I find it more plausible that one team had a surprisingly high opinion of Clase than 5 teams all had that low of an opinion of Kluber. 
 

Or maybe something troubling showed up in Kluber’s medicals, which would also explain it. No one has told me that though. 
 

i believe you Jeff 100%, but as you say something just doesn't quite add up. 

[floplag]

30 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t think it’s that hard imagine it.  They wanted a major league outfielder.  The Angels said no to giving up any of theirs so Cleveland asked for a good prospect that they liked.  Regardless of how highly touted a prospect is.  They aren’t major leaguers.  Anyway, I’m not saying I think Cleveland did well for Kluber.  But I understand why they would have asked for Marsh.  And obviously why that didn’t work out.  
 

important to remember that Cleveland actually needed Deshields.  And when it came down to Clase, they probably internally viewed him as more valuable to them then like Michael Hermosillo.  

True, but not my point. 
They are also in the 2B market, looking at FA and trade options, so its clear they needed BOTH a OF and a 2B.   WE could have met the 2B thing easily and they could have shopped for the OF... they chose the other way. 

[totdprods]

21 minutes ago, floplag said:

WE could have met the 2B thing easily and they could have shopped for the OF... they chose the other way. 

What if it was Fletcher they wanted? What if Rengifo wasn't enough as an MLB-ready 2B? Meeting it easily isn't a sure thing. 

I think Cleveland just really, really liked Clase, and I think they felt they were in a position where they could ask for whomever they really wanted - Marsh from the Angels, Clase from Texas, let's say Lux or Pederson from the Dodgers - and they held their ground on that. Texas was the first to pull the trigger. It doesn't mean Clase = Marsh = Lux = Rengifo.

Time is a big variable that us on the boards overlook. These things are fluid. Cleveland and Detroit and Colorado and Arizona can sit back right now and ask for Jo Adell if they wanted to for any of their arms, and for equally high prices from other teams, and can wait all winter if they want to just to see if anyone flinches. That doesn't mean they'll get it. That doesn't mean that if another team pulls the trigger, they dealt something equivalent to Adell either. It just means someone was the first to meet the high price. 

As winter goes on, if they're really motivated to move, maybe they change it to Marsh. Then maybe Rengifo + Sandoval. Then maybe Rengifo. 

[floplag]

7 minutes ago, totdprods said:

What if it was Fletcher they wanted? What if Rengifo wasn't enough as an MLB-ready 2B? Meeting it easily isn't a sure thing. 

I think Cleveland just really, really liked Clase, and I think they felt they were in a position where they could ask for whomever they really wanted - Marsh from the Angels, Clase from Texas, let's say Lux or Pederson from the Dodgers - and they held their ground on that. Texas was the first to pull the trigger. It doesn't mean Clase = Marsh = Lux = Rengifo.

Time is a big variable that us on the boards overlook. These things are fluid. Cleveland and Detroit and Colorado and Arizona can sit back right now and ask for Jo Adell if they wanted to for any of their arms, and for equally high prices from other teams, and can wait all winter if they want to just to see if anyone flinches. That doesn't mean they'll get it. That doesn't mean that if another team pulls the trigger, they dealt something equivalent to Adell either. It just means someone was the first to meet the high price. 

As winter goes on, if they're really motivated to move, maybe they change it to Marsh. Then maybe Rengifo + Sandoval. Then maybe Rengifo. 

Entirely possible, as said were just speculating. 

[Docwaukee]

11 minutes ago, floplag said:

True, but not my point. 
They are also in the 2B market, looking at FA and trade options, so its clear they needed BOTH a OF and a 2B.   WE could have met the 2B thing easily and they could have shopped for the OF... they chose the other way. 

first off, and probably most important, they probably aren't high on Rengifo.  Even halo fans are mixed so I can see it.  I can totally see how Billy wouldn't give up Fletcher if the tribe didn't like Rengifo that much and I can also see how Billy would be unwilling to give up both Sandoval and Rengifo to make up whatever difference cleveland felt their was.  

truly elite relievers are worth a shit ton on the trade market.  Cleveland probably has 1-2 seasons of competing and then they're going into rebuild mode.  If they aren't in the race at the deadline or maybe even after the 2020 season, then Brad Hand becomes expendable now and probably gets you a couple of top 100 prospects in return.  Plus, in two years, if Clase is what they think he will be, he'll get an Andrew Miller or Aroldis Chapman type return.  

It's not a stretch to theorize that they didn't see that kind of future value in Rengifo.