OC Register: Source: Stephen Strasburg, Angels had face-to-face meeting

[Claude]

2 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Oh, I'm sorry if you weren't clear...

Clearly, my bad

I believe that Cole is the Angels answer for a huge playoff push. With Trout and Ohtani it has to be. 

[T.G.]

Some people (and we know who they are) just talk out of their ass.  It's like a fart.  Some of them are loud, but don't necessarily smell and some are silent but deadly. Then there's the loud, smelly farts and that's what we get a lot of in here.   Rational people leave the room when there is a loud, smelly fart in the room.  That being said, there's usually a WTF before they depart - but they know sticking around is pointless. The really gifted people are the one's who can return the favor before departing. The original offender is left alone, smelling their own fart and wondering where everyone went.  The point is that you eventually have to leave these a-holes alone to wallow in their own crap.

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Oh, I'm sorry if you weren't clear...

Clearly, my bad

This was a narrative I saw coming a mile a way.  You need to step up your game Mulwin.  

[mulwin444]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This was a narrative I saw coming a mile a way.  You need to step up your game Mulwin.  

It's December so I'm not ready to play this kind of failo chess yet...I'll thaw out in February.

[Stradling]

Ok, I will ask, who here has a hard on at the idea of signing Cole to an 8 year deal?  

Next question, who here would rather have him on a shorter deal, but would tolerate an 8 year deal if that is what it takes to sign the best pitcher in baseball?  

@Vladdylonglegs this would be a good thread you could start, make it a poll question.  

[Claude]

Another poll

Will it be Cole or Coal this winter?

[totdprods]

Still think it’s really convenient this article came out about Boras client Strasburg and the Angels just as the article about Boras client and Cole and the Yankees came out. Feels a little Boras-coordinated to drive up offers or get other teams involved, probably an indicator that talks are progressing for at least one of them. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by totdprods

[Inside Pitch]

59 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

The Angels have hit the desperation button. After a death, injuries and the lack of qualify player development in pitching they have no other choice but to buy a pitcher. Now they’re going to have to go overboard to pay for one. Looking back at Wilson, Skaggs, Heaney, Tropeano, Richards, Ohtani and a few others, none of them either through injuries or lack of talent stepped up to be a true long term Ace. Ohtani still has that potential but being a two-way player will most likely prevent that. Cole would certainly fill that role but 7 or 8 years for a 30 year old is a huge gamble for any team. 

Kudos for changing "destruction" to desperation, but even after the edit you seriously have the most skewed negative view of things possible..     

A person could just as easily argue that after spending four years rebuilding the farm, adding depth to the system, locking up their franchise player and securing their park, they are ready to go big..   ALL of these things are net positives that figure to impact the franchise in a positive way for years to come  -- it's signs of progress..   Spending now to get a legitimate ace when they have multiple SPs all under the age of 24 and in AAA or on the cusp of MLB could just as easily be viewed as an attempt to build their team with an eye towards the future as it is an act of desperation..  But in your world -- it's always the opposite.   People really should stop wasting time looking back -- it serves no purpose other than to focus on what didn't work..   The here and now is all that matters -- monies spent on bad decisions no longer on the books have no bearing on future possibilities.   

The Angels will need to spend to sign Cole, so will any team already a WS contender and primed to win that wants to sign him.

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

Another poll

Will it be Cole or Coal this winter?

Well the good news is you’ll either be right or you’ll be happy.  This is a win win for you.  He either signs with the Angels and you’ll be able to say you knew it.  Or he signs with the Yankees and you’ll be wrong, but happy he is signing with your favorite team. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Which speaks to my point. When it comes to every other player people don't want to pay for their past success. With Cole everyone does. Why?

Do you believe all players are equal?   Are Reggie Willits and Mike Trout the same?  They both played CF.

[arch stanton]

The most accurate definition of masochism that I can come up with is not putting Claude on ignore 

[Claude]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Well the good news is you’ll either be right or you’ll be happy.  This is a win win for you.  He either signs with the Angels and you’ll be able to say you knew it.  Or he signs with the Yankees and you’ll be wrong, but happy he is signing with your favorite team. 

It’s like ordering a double double. Animal style. 

[Angel Oracle]

45 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Some people (and we know who they are) just talk out of their ass.  It's like a fart.  Some of them are loud, but don't necessarily smell and some are silent but deadly. Then there's the loud, smelly farts and that's what we get a lot of in here.   Rational people leave the room when there is a loud, smelly fart in the room.  That being said, there's usually a WTF before they depart - but they know sticking around is pointless. The really gifted people are the one's who can return the favor before departing. The original offender is left alone, smelling their own fart and wondering where everyone went.  The point is that you eventually have to leave these a-holes alone to wallow in their own crap.

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Still think it’s really convenient this article came out about Boras client Strasburg and the Angels just as the article about Boras client and Cole and the Yankees came out. Feels a little Boras-coordinated to drive up offers or get other teams involved, probably an indicator that talks are progressing for at least one of them. 

I’m sure they didn’t mind it, but it certainly wasn’t driven by them. I can promise you that. 

[Docwaukee]

I'm pretty much in the 'whatever it takes' crowd if there is one.  

there's a difference between paying for past performance and paying someone based on their track record.  It's the job of the buying team to perform due diligence and determine whether that previous performance is sustainable and for how long.  The older a player is when you sign him decreases those chances.  

I want the Angels to be all in on Cole because I don't think they have a chance to win without someone like him over the next 3 years and there is no one else even remotely close to what he brings coming from the halos system or in free agency any time soon.  

Let's assume for a second that he and Wheeler perform similarly in 2020 as they did in 2019 and the delta in their performance stays similar the next 5 years or so.  Over that 5 years, Cole is gonna cost about 10 mil more per year than Wheeler over the next 5 years but provides more more value for that additional 10m.  

Beyond 5yrs is when the contract gets tricky but there is precedent for ace level pitchers aging well like Verlander, Scherzer and Greinke.  The ones that haven't aged well into their mid 30's have had shoulder issues like Felix and Johan Santana.  So personally, I really like Cole's chances of being very good later in the contract.  

And let's be clear.  This is not the Pujols contract.  Albert started a 10 year deal with the Angels in his age 32 season.  Cole would be starting an 8 year deal in his age 29 season.  

If you're risk averse and don't think the current team is worth investing in then so be it.  But I see the sweet spot of this deal being from 2022-24 when Trout is 30-32 and Ohtani is in his late 20's.  A bunch of our young talent will be in the majors and several will have a couple years of ramp up time by then.  And if Eppler plays his cards right, two years from now a lot of the guys in rookie ball will be in AA so there will be a pot of tradeable assets to further improve the team.  Also by that time, there will be a fair amount of dead weight off the books

[Docwaukee]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I’m sure they didn’t mind it, but it certainly wasn’t driven by them. I can promise you that. 

Personally, I think it's the Yankees trying to appease their fans.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 minute ago, Dochalo said:

Personally, I think it's the Yankees trying to appease their fans.  

I was just talking about the Strasburg-Angels story. I only know the genesis of that one. 

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I was just talking about the Strasburg-Angels story. I only know the genesis of that one. 

gotcha.  I'm not sure what Boras has to gain by publicly showing that two of his clients are interviewing with teams looking for pitching.  He already knows that internally and what impact that has.  My guess is that the Halos met with Corbin last year and Wheeler this year as well as many other pitchers which didn't get leaked to the press.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

20 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

gotcha.  I'm not sure what Boras has to gain by publicly showing that two of his clients are interviewing with teams looking for pitching.  He already knows that internally and what impact that has.  My guess is that the Halos met with Corbin last year and Wheeler this year as well as many other pitchers which didn't get leaked to the press.  

Of course. Like I said, most of the meetings don’t lead to deals and don’t get publicized. 
 

The whole thing is sort of like looking through a keyhole into a big ballroom. A lot of stuff is happening besides what we can see through the keyhole. 

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

@RBM @Stradling@Lou

Cool.

Hey everyone Doc is now everyone!

[Pancake Bear]

3 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

What is it about Cole's track record that makes his future success so convincing? He was essentially a #4 type in 2017. A #3 the year before. He improved dramatically the second he became an Astro. That raises some serious red flags for me.

Better coaching. Unlocking what was already there. The Angels now have arguably one of the best pitching coaches and managers in the league with Callaway and Maddon. No reason he should regress. Also, it’s not like he’ll suddenly forget whatever he learned in Houston that unlocked the improvement. 

The notion that somehow the Astros got something out of him that no one else could and that he’ll turn into a pumpkin wherever he lands next makes zero sense to me. Perhaps you can enlighten me on why you think he can’t sustain his improvement. 

[Buttercup]

10 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

What is it about Cole's track record that makes his future success so convincing? He was essentially a #4 type in 2017. A #3 the year before. He improved dramatically the second he became an Astro. That raises some serious red flags for me.

I hate looking at projections because it’s so difficult to put faith in the future results. But, he is following a Max Scherzer trajectory with a similar arsenal. 
 

 

[Pancake Bear]

2 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Because most pitchers don't once they hit 30.

Most are bad pitchers. Compare his career to date with other top aces. This just isn’t a convincing argument. 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Because most pitchers don't once they hit 30.

Ok, so show us some stats of the really good pitchers in the league falling on their face in their age 29 season.  Or their 30 season.  Then their 31 season.  Then their 32 season.  If we were talking about someone entering their age 33 season I would agree that we could expect an immediate drop off.  But when they are entering their age 29 season, I’m not buying it.  Show us a regression chart for pitchers coming off of multiple DOMINANT years where they fall off a cliff at age 29.  

[Blarg]

50 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I want the Angels to be all in on Cole because I don't think they have a chance to win without someone like him over the next 3 years

I have to disagree with this. There has been plenty of successful years of Angels baseball with guys taking the mound that were second tier pitching talent. The Angels had a couple decades of true aces in guys like Chance, Ryan and Tannana but since they've never had a Cole level pitcher. Washburn, Lacky and Weaver, although bulldogs, just were never on the same level.

It can't hurt to have a pitcher of Cole's talent level. It can hurt the franchise if they put all their future payroll flexibility into one player at a position known for the highest attrition rate in baseball. 

I really would have no qualms if the Angels opted for two very reliable second tier pitchers that are known to have spikes of well above league average performance but no Cy Young resume. Taking lesser years, lesser money but far lesser impact should one go down. 

Just so there is no misunderstanding I am talking about 2nd tier, not the Harvey or Blantons of pitching.