Expect a big trade soon

[Angelsfan1984 2,025]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

I'd be open to substituting a bat, but not Thaiss, Rengifo or Adams. Thaiss has just developed the power necessary to succeed. He's only going to get better. Rengifo is also going to improve. He has more speed than he showed, and his plate discipline will come into play more. And Adams.... For me he's off limits. 

Off limits for what reason? The angels have all 3 outfield spots locked up for about 10 years. I'd get rid of Adams before I got rid of Marsh.

[Stradling 27,586]

Just now, Angelsfan1984 said:

Off limits for what reason? The angels have all 3 outfield spots locked up for about 10 years. I'd get rid of Adams before I got rid of Marsh.

I agree with Scotty on this one but for probably a different reason.  Adams value hasn’t reached any where near its peak yet.  Right now he is a “throw in” or a “lottery ticket” piece of a trade.  In a year or two if he breaks out he will be the center of a trade, thus bringing back much more talent.  

[totdprods 8,477]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I agree with Scotty on this one but for probably a different reason.  Adams value hasn’t reached any where near its peak yet.  Right now he is a “throw in” or a “lottery ticket” piece of a trade.  In a year or two if he breaks out he will be the center of a trade, thus bringing back much more talent.  

He has a lot of potential value he might accumulate still, but he’s far from a throw-in/lotto ticket. 

[Second Base 8,742]

18 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Off limits for what reason? The angels have all 3 outfield spots locked up for about 10 years. I'd get rid of Adams before I got rid of Marsh.

Lots of reasons.

1. Last year was his first time ever focusing solely on baseball and what did he do? Make it up to advanced A Ball as a 19 year old kid. Imagine what he may do at 23 or 24!

2. He's just beginning to fill out, and we can expect him to get a lot stronger.

3. He's shown an easier time lifting the ball than Marsh has, so the HR totals should continue to climb.

4. He's even faster than Marsh and Adell. He's also a better athlete than both as well, which is hard to say. But Adams was a 4-star WR as a high schooler with a full ride to play at North Carolina. He was even expected to start his freshman year. 

- Fun fact: the Angels actually have a couple athletes like that. Torii Hunter Jr. played WR at Notre Dame, and Michael Hermosillo had a full ride to play RB/DB at Illinois.

5. Because he's spent less time developing than Marsh, he isn't as good as him defensively, but he's on par with Adell. However, you give it a year and Adams will likely be a better defender than Marsh. Watching him run down balls in CF reminds me of Torii Hunter when he was with the Twins. Adams is the only one with enough upside to step in and replicate, if not outperform Trout in the outfield at some point. Trout will still need to move off CF as some point, but for now he's still in the gold glove conversation every year, and with good reason. 

6. I don't know the future, but I do know that Maddon doesn't mind playing guys out of position to keep their bat in the lineup. He did it all the time in Tampa Bay and Chicago. We could see Marsh play some 1B at some point. But either way, with a little imagination, there's room for Marsh, Adell, Adams and Trout in the same ball field. Erstad moved out of the outfield to play 1B. Bellinger moved off 1B to the OF, Trout moved to LF for a little bit to accommodate Bourjos, which wasn't the best arrangement.

7. The dunk.

8. Reports from instructional league indicate that Adams was the best player on the field by a large margin. One scout says he looked like a professional playing amongst high school kids. He's just bigger, stronger, faster and carries himself different than the rest of the professionals. We all knew that one kid in high school that was clearly going to be a professional athlete. We stands out in a crowd full of those guys.

9. And finally, even if you do decide to trade Adams, you have to wait until his value is higher. You'd be selling way too low right now.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Second Base

[Angelsfan1984 2,025]

17 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Lots of reasons.

1. Last year was his first time ever focusing solely on baseball and what did he do? Make it up to advanced A Ball as a 19 year old kid. Imagine what he may do at 23 or 24!

2. He's just beginning to fill out, and we can expect him to get a lot stronger.

3. He's shown an easier time lifting the ball than Marsh has, so the HR totals should continue to climb.

4. He's even faster than Marsh and Adell. He's also a better athlete than both as well, which is hard to say. But Adams was a 4-star WR as a high schooler with a full ride to play at North Carolina. He was even expected to start his freshman year. 

- Fun fact: the Angels actually have a couple athletes like that. Torii Hunter Jr. played WR at Notre Dame, and Michael Hermosillo had a full ride to play RB/DB at Illinois.

5. Because he's spent less time developing than Marsh, he isn't as good as him defensively, but he's on par with Adell. However, you give it a year and Adams will likely be a better defender than Marsh. Watching him run down balls in CF reminds me of Torii Hunter when he was with the Twins. Adams is the only one with enough upside to step in and replicate, if not outperform Trout in the outfield at some point. Trout will still need to move off CF as some point, but for now he's still in the gold glove conversation every year, and with good reason. 

6. I don't know the future, but I do know that Maddon doesn't mind playing guys out of position to keep their bat in the lineup. He did it all the time in Tampa Bay and Chicago. We could see Marsh play some 1B at some point. But either way, with a little imagination, there's room for Marsh, Adell, Adams and Trout in the same ball field. Erstad moved out of the outfield to play 1B. Bellinger moved off 1B to the OF, Trout moved to LF for a little bit to accommodate Bourjos, which wasn't the best arrangement.

7. The dunk.

8. Reports from instructional league indicate that Adams was the best player on the field by a large margin. One scout says he looked like a professional playing amongst high school kids. He's just bigger, stronger, faster and carries himself different than the rest of the professionals. We all knew that one kid in high school that was clearly going to be a professional athlete. We stands out in a crowd full of those guys.

9. And finally, even if you do decide to trade Adams, you have to wait until his value is higher. You'd be selling way too low right now.

While I agree with the majority of your points, given the fact that Adell and Marsh should lock up those spots along with Trout, there really isn't the room.  In fact a slight counter to your argument is the case for him being so raw. Lets say his skills dont pan out or the athleticism only carries him so far and you've lost 4 years of prime trout with the chance to chase titles, I think that would constitute as a waste. I do acknowledge the same could hold true if Adell or Marsh don't pan out as well. In my opinion they have a much higher probability to succeed than Adams. If the price is Adams for a front end of the rotation piece with some control you have to take it. I'm not saying you trade him for the likes of Boyd or someone like that.

[totdprods 8,477]

3 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

While I agree with the majority of your points, given the fact that Adell and Marsh should lock up those spots along with Trout, there really isn't the room.  In fact a slight counter to your argument is the case for him being so raw. Lets say his skills dont pan out or the athleticism only carries him so far and you've lost 4 years of prime trout with the chance to chase titles, I think that would constitute as a waste. I do acknowledge the same could hold true if Adell or Marsh don't pan out as well. In my opinion they have a much higher probability to succeed than Adams. If the price is Adams for a front end of the rotation piece with some control you have to take it. I'm not saying you trade him for the likes of Boyd or someone like that.

Yup - the variable left out of what @Second Base listed is present-time. He's not wrong on any of those points - he's 100% right. 

But there isn't an acknowledgment that Eppler might need to make a trade this winter/this year to deliver what's being asked of him or to secure his job. Adams developing or paying off for the Angels in 3-4 years doesn't real have any bearing on this very moment if that's where all of Eppler's attention is.

[Second Base 8,742]

16 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Yup - the variable left out of what @Second Base listed is present-time. He's not wrong on any of those points - he's 100% right. 

But there isn't an acknowledgment that Eppler might need to make a trade this winter/this year to deliver what's being asked of him or to secure his job. Adams developing or paying off for the Angels in 3-4 years doesn't real have any bearing on this very moment if that's where all of Eppler's attention is.

I sincerely hope Eppler doesn't find himself in that desperate of a situation. Arte is going to let him spend, and I'd rather spend money than prospects.

[Glen 9,381]

[Second Base 8,742]

2 hours ago, eligrba said:

Please help me understand how trading away two MLB ready starters and another ready in a year in half for a single pitcher is a good long term move?

I will take the answer off the air.

I know it's a lot to give up, but it's more about the distribution of talent. The Angels have enough back end starters, and have more on the way. So they can afford to eat into their stock of back end starters in order to acquire a mid or front of the rotation starter.

[totdprods 8,477]

Just now, Second Base said:

I sincerely hope Eppler doesn't find himself in that desperate of a situation. Arte is going to let him spend, and I'd rather spend money than prospects.

You and me both. I have no problem giving Eppler this year and next before making any final decisions and have been satisfied with his work so far, but I’m still not convinced he’s not without some pressure to make some bold moves this winter. 

What gives me some hope is knowing what Eppler was able to do for our farm in the last four years. If he has to withdraw from that bank this winter in order to get himself three or four more years here, I’m very confident he will be able to work around whoever he has to deal. He doesn’t overpay and he isn’t stupid or risky in his trades.

[Rally Gorilla 182]

IMHO, the Angels need to STOP trading away young talent for older players.     The silver lining of being sub .500 four years in a row is a chance to address our lack of price controlled, home-grown players.   In this era, that is the only way for any team to compete.      Does that make it harder to compete in 2020?   Maybe.    But the team has so many needs right now it's going to be hard to compete in 2020 anyway no matter what we do.      We need to break the cycle of being both financially hamstrung and low on young help.  

[floplag 3,493]

Just now, Rally Gorilla said:

IMHO, the Angels need to STOP trading away young talent.     The silver lining of being sub .500 four years in a row is a chance to address our lack of price controlled, home-grown talent.   In this era, that is the only way we can compete.      Does that make it harder to compete in 2020?   Yep.    But the team has so many needs right now it's going to be hard to compete in 2020 anyway no matter what we do.      I hope we keep our young talent and make some reasonable risk FA hires.    We need to break the cycle of being both financially hamstrung and low on young help.  

I disagree with much of this.
We could easily compete this year, just as we could have last year to a certain degree.
No matter what else we do it starts with spending, which costs nothing in prospect capital.  But if there is a trade out there that helps us and can be made from a spot of depth, there is no reason not to look at it.   Are there untouchables, possibly, but we have certain spots with depth and others with none and not enough money to fill them all... trading for one of them makes perfect sense as long as it doesnt involve things we cant really afford to lose or being stupid about it in the process. 

[Rally Gorilla 182]

7 minutes ago, floplag said:

I disagree with much of this.
We could easily compete this year, just as we could have last year to a certain degree.
No matter what else we do it starts with spending, which costs nothing in prospect capital.  But if there is a trade out there that helps us and can be made from a spot of depth, there is no reason not to look at it.   Are there untouchables, possibly, but we have certain spots with depth and others with none and not enough money to fill them all... trading for one of them makes perfect sense as long as it doesnt involve things we cant really afford to lose or being stupid about it in the process. 

Before I saw your response, I had edited to say we should not trade away youth for older players.  Obviously, all teams trade youth for youth at times for various reasons.    I just don't want to see us stay stuck in a the rut we are in with a lack of cost controlled youth and too many bad contracts on the books that force us to dumpster dive for FA in a vain attempt to fill holes.

[howie 30]

I’d like to see a trade for Kris Bryant- makes too much sense.  He’s not a FA for 2 years, which *happens* to coincide with the end of Albert’s contract.  We’ve been needing a 3B for a long time- this gives us another star bat.  Everyone knows he’s not re-signing with the Cubs, maybe Joe can show him that LA is the place for him long-term.  

[floplag 3,493]

19 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Before I saw your response, I had edited to say we should not trade away youth for older players.  Obviously, all teams trade youth for youth at times for various reasons.    I just don't want to see us stay stuck in a the rut we are in with a lack of cost controlled youth and too many bad contracts on the books that force us to dumpster dive for FA in a vain attempt to fill holes.

No one wants that, of course, and i dont really fear that under Eppler.   I expect he might make a move this year some wont like, but he needs to do that to have a next year at this point.  Long term he doesnt scare me, hes not DiPoto. 

[Mark68 3,742]

[Rally Gorilla 182]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

No one wants that, of course, and i dont really fear that under Eppler.   I expect he might make a move this year some wont like, but he needs to do that to have a next year at this point.  Long term he doesnt scare me, hes not DiPoto. 

I'd like to think we can sign four or five high to mid-level FA's to shorter terms contracts  (3-4 year, instead of the 7-8 year Cole is expected to get).     If they don't require giving up draft picks, then so much the better.    Who knows, with a little luck, maybe guys like Adell and Ohtani have monster years and and we can make a run and still keep most of our young guys for the team's future.

[Angelsfan1984 2,025]

37 minutes ago, howie said:

I’d like to see a trade for Kris Bryant- makes too much sense.  He’s not a FA for 2 years, which *happens* to coincide with the end of Albert’s contract.  We’ve been needing a 3B for a long time- this gives us another star bat.  Everyone knows he’s not re-signing with the Cubs, maybe Joe can show him that LA is the place for him long-term.  

I thought about this as well...but why not just sign Rendon at that point and give up on a 2nd rounder instead of multiple players who would be required to make a trade of that magnitude.

[Bronson 1,158]

40 minutes ago, howie said:

I’d like to see a trade for Kris Bryant- makes too much sense.  He’s not a FA for 2 years, which *happens* to coincide with the end of Albert’s contract.  We’ve been needing a 3B for a long time- this gives us another star bat.  Everyone knows he’s not re-signing with the Cubs, maybe Joe can show him that LA is the place for him long-term.  

Only problem is the convos for Bryant start and end with Adell. Like the post above... just sign Rendon if the Angels want a 3rd baseman that bad.

[Rally Gorilla 182]

We had a -0.3 WAR outa the third base position last season.      Why not sign Moose to a 2-3 year deal that gives us a decent chance to take that up to +2 or +3 in the short term w/o losing a pick?        Then keep going in filling other voids.    We need some balance.

[floplag 3,493]

49 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I'd like to think we can sign four or five high to mid-level FA's to shorter terms contracts  (3-4 year, instead of the 7-8 year Cole is expected to get).     If they don't require giving up draft picks, then so much the better.    Who knows, with a little luck, maybe guys like Adell and Ohtani have monster years and and we can make a run and still keep most of our young guys for the team's future.

i think 2 is a reasonable expectation, be they arms or bats.  I also think a third move via trade is likely for whichever doesnt come from FA.

[howie 30]

53 minutes ago, Bronson said:

Only problem is the convos for Bryant start and end with Adell. Like the post above... just sign Rendon if the Angels want a 3rd baseman that bad.

I think it could get done without Adell-  if we could do that and sign Cole, we’re essentially adding Bryant, Cole, Adell and Ohtani the pitcher- that’s not a bad jump start to get us to the playoffs and then anything can happen as we saw with the Nationals.  

[Pancake Bear 2,209]

56 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

We had a -0.3 WAR outa the third base position last season.      Why not sign Moose to a 2-3 year deal that gives us a decent chance to take that up to +2 or +3 in the short term w/o losing a pick?        Then keep going in filling other voids.    We need some balance.

First, where did you get your number? Per Fangraphs, we were 12th with a 4.2 WAR. It would’ve been higher if La Stella hadn’t been injured and we weren’t playing Thaiss there as much. 

Second, Moustakas is a worse player than either Fletcher or La Stella and he’s on the wrong side of 30. 

He fills no hole at all that I can see. What am I missing?

[Rally Gorilla 182]

48 minutes ago, floplag said:

i think 2 is a reasonable expectation, be they arms or bats.  I also think a third move via trade is likely for whichever doesnt come from FA.

You could be right.    I'm just trying to think of some path that gets us a chance to contend over the next few seasons  w/o totally screwing up the team's future.   What I don't want to see is taking huge risks and/or depleting the farm out of a crisis mindset.       And who knows?   Maybe we can get help in four or five areas and the resulting more balanced team could set the table for the Supernatural's contributions to translate to wins more often.

[Glen 9,381]

16 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

First, where did you get your number? Per Fangraphs, we were 12th with a 4.2 WAR. It would’ve been higher if La Stella hadn’t been injured and we weren’t playing Thaiss there as much. 

Second, Moustakas is a worse player than either Fletcher or La Stella and he’s on the wrong side of 30. 

He fills no hole at all that I can see. What am I missing?

He fills the Moustakas hole, a hole that all 30 teams currently have. Only one team will fill it.