Astros accused of high-tech sign-stealing scheme during 2017 championship season

[Stradling]

Imagine how hilarious it would be if the Dodgers finally got another championship and this is how they got it.   When’s the parade?

[Blarg]

8 minutes ago, Lou said:

there is no way another franchise would accept a World Series title that they didn't win on the field.

[Pancake Bear]

8 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

 

The point I am trying to make  (perhaps badly!)  is that IF they take the ring away from the Tanker/cheaters and give it to anyone else, it would be the Dodgers.      I think the point @Dochalo is trying to make is that the whole environment is contaminated so no team should be awarded the title.   So, I'm guessing he is arguing that even if Astros have their title pulled, it shouldn't and won't go to any other team.    But I think an argument can be made that the Dodgers deserve the title because they didn't get caught cheating and they lost the WS to a team that did get caught cheating.    And, while I don't really hate the Dodgers too much,  I certainly would not like to see them get a title.   Their fans are obnoxious enough already.   

It makes no sense to give it to the Dodgers over the Yankees. There is no rational way to make that argument. 

[Don]

Honestly, I hate the vacating of titles thing anyway. Just seems like a purely symbolic move that solves nothing and doesn't really punish the franchise in any way. The players and coaches and fans will all know they still won it. They were there when it happened. I'd prefer MLB did something with some actual affect going forward. Taking away a 1st and 2nd round pick for the next 2-3 years seems like a good start. Maybe a postseason ban for Hinch for next year?

[yk9001]

12 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Imagine how hilarious it would be if the Dodgers finally got another championship and this is how they got it.   When’s the parade?

Its why they wouldn't do it.

Its an asinine theory that isn't worth debating.

[Rally Gorilla]

2 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

It makes no sense to give it to the Dodgers over the Yankees. There is no rational way to make that argument. 

Even it it isn't likely to happen,  I can see a rational argument for awarding the title to the team that got there, took it to seven games, and lost to a team that was later found out to be cheating.   

[Rally Gorilla]

6 minutes ago, Don said:

Honestly, I hate the vacating of titles thing anyway. Just seems like a purely symbolic move that solves nothing and doesn't really punish the franchise in any way. The players and coaches and fans will all know they still won it. They were there when it happened. I'd prefer MLB did something with some actual affect going forward. Taking away a 1st and 2nd round pick for the next 2-3 years seems like a good start. Maybe a postseason ban for Hinch for next year?

I hope the take the title away AND get punitive with draft picks and other measures.

[Taylor]

2 hours ago, yk9001 said:

I'll bet you one thousand internet dollars that they wouldn't.

Easy there. Bitcoins are worth a lot, at least according to fs79's sources.

[Pancake Bear]

8 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Even it it isn't likely to happen,  I can see a rational argument for awarding the title to the team that got there, took it to seven games, and lost to a team that was later found out to be cheating.   

The Yankees lost in 7 games to the Astros in the ALCS. Without cheating, it’s them vs. the Dodgers. Awarding it to the Dodgers assumes they would have won if the Astros hadn’t cheated, but we have no idea if the Astros would’ve even made the playoffs without cheating.

The notion of giving the Dodgers the 2017 WS is nonsensical. There is no chance that will happen. I also guarantee at this point they would reject any fan push to award it to them. 

[Rally Gorilla]

2 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

The Yankees lost in 7 games to the Astros in the ALCS. Without cheating, it’s them vs. the Dodgers. Awarding it to the Dodgers assumes they would have won if the Astros hadn’t cheated, but we have no idea if the Astros would’ve even made the playoffs without cheating.

The notion of giving the Dodgers the 2017 WS is nonsensical. There is no chance that will happen. I also guarantee at this point they would reject any fan push to award it to them. 

So, you're saying the Dodgers are locks to get the ring?  EDIT:   Just kidding.   I respect that you disagree with me that an argument can be made.  I'm curious to see what the MLB will do.

[Pancake Bear]

20 minutes ago, Don said:

Honestly, I hate the vacating of titles thing anyway. Just seems like a purely symbolic move that solves nothing and doesn't really punish the franchise in any way. The players and coaches and fans will all know they still won it. They were there when it happened. I'd prefer MLB did something with some actual affect going forward. Taking away a 1st and 2nd round pick for the next 2-3 years seems like a good start. Maybe a postseason ban for Hinch for next year?

Yeah, there’s really no reason to do it. Everyone knows they cheated to win. They’re now the Barry Bonds of WS winners. They can never point to their championship as an achievement because nobody will take it seriously. Justin Verlander still has no WS wins. Neither does Carlos Beltran. It’s forever tainted. The only thing that could change that is for allegations to be disproved. That’s not happening.  

[Lou]

4 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

Yeah, there’s really no reason to do it. Everyone knows they cheated to win. They’re now the Barry Bonds of WS winners. They can never point to their championship as an achievement because nobody will take it seriously. Justin Verlander still has no WS wins. Neither does Carlos Beltran. It’s forever tainted. The only thing that could change that is for allegations to be disproved. That’s not happening.  

[Hubs]

The Reds are still listed as the winners of the 1919 Series, even though it's assumed that the White Sox (Black Sox) threw it.

My thoughts on punishment:

 

1) Vacate the entire 2019 and 2020 Astros draft classes. The whole thing.

2) Ban them from international signings for three years.

3) Maximum fines.

4) AJ Hinch, 2 year ban

5) Lunhow, lifetime ban

6) Cora and all other coaches involved in 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons, 1 year ban (INCLUDING BELTRAN).

7) Three years of locker room / dugout monitoring for Astros organization.

 

Throw the book at them. This is the third or fourth time they've been caught doing something unscrupulous under Lunhow. If the Braves guy got a lifetime ban for messing around with signings in the Dominican...this should be the same level of punishment.

 

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Whereas I dont agree with, sympathize with, or support what houston did in 2017, I do in fact support and applaud the fact they managed to piss off and frustrate dodger fans two years later. 

[tdawg87]

Me when I see Red Sox fans giving Astros fans shit for their team cheating:

[Tank]

If they vacate the Astros title, there’s only one solution to figure out the champion: strat-o-matic 

[Docwaukee]

if you vacate the 2017 WS title then you have to vacate their division titles and two pennants.  Do they also have to vacate any of the individual players awards if they find out those players were involved?  Like Altuve's mvp?  Vacating any one thing opens a huge can of worms.  They're just not gonna do it.  

[Lou]

Report: MLB asking Astros players about different sign-stealing methods

Major League Baseball's investigation into allegations that the Houston Astros stole signs electronically over the past three seasons has led to another twist.

The league is asking players in the organization about a variety of sign-stealing techniques, including buzzing Band-Aid-like wearable stickers, furtive earpieces, and pitch-picking algorithms, according to Jeff Passan of ESPN.

The wide-ranging accusations about the Astros' methods are stemming from other team officials, sources told Passan.

League officials have told the players who might have violated rules that telling the truth will help lower the severity of their punishments, Passan adds. Investigators have also asked to search the phones of certain members of the Astros' front office.

Executives and members of the team's coaching staff reportedly could face significant discipline. The league wants to find out the depth of the violations and what people in the organization knew, sources told Passan.

A number of Astros players are still expected to meet with investigators, and others who don't play in the majors anymore are refusing to cooperate, according to Passan.

Multiple owners of other clubs reportedly said at the owners meetings in Texas that they want the Astros to be punished severely with penalties such as suspensions, fines, and lost draft picks and international slot money.

Teams have grown so paranoid of Houston's alleged sign-stealing that the Washington Nationals reportedly used five sign sequences for pitchers during the 2019 World Series.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

Report: MLB asking Astros players about different sign-stealing methods

Major League Baseball's investigation into allegations that the Houston Astros stole signs electronically over the past three seasons has led to another twist.

The league is asking players in the organization about a variety of sign-stealing techniques, including buzzing Band-Aid-like wearable stickers, furtive earpieces, and pitch-picking algorithms, according to Jeff Passan of ESPN.

The wide-ranging accusations about the Astros' methods are stemming from other team officials, sources told Passan.

League officials have told the players who might have violated rules that telling the truth will help lower the severity of their punishments, Passan adds. Investigators have also asked to search the phones of certain members of the Astros' front office.

Executives and members of the team's coaching staff reportedly could face significant discipline. The league wants to find out the depth of the violations and what people in the organization knew, sources told Passan.

A number of Astros players are still expected to meet with investigators, and others who don't play in the majors anymore are refusing to cooperate, according to Passan.

Multiple owners of other clubs reportedly said at the owners meetings in Texas that they want the Astros to be punished severely with penalties such as suspensions, fines, and lost draft picks and international slot money.

Teams have grown so paranoid of Houston's alleged sign-stealing that the Washington Nationals reportedly used five sign sequences for pitchers during the 2019 World Series.

I'm glad they're at least thinking of punishing the players.  There couldn't be a better time for Arte to open up his wallet and set the halos up to win this year.  If mlb can take care of neutering the Astros in 2020 by suspending players to the point that it weakens their team by by 5-10 wins, that would be a great start.  

this is also gonna put a major dent in their free agent choices.  Wouldn't be surprised if most players avoid them like the plague at least until the sanctions come down which likely won't happen until the end of the off season.  

this is a great opportunity for the Angels  

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, Lou said:

Report: MLB asking Astros players about different sign-stealing methods

Major League Baseball's investigation into allegations that the Houston Astros stole signs electronically over the past three seasons has led to another twist.

The league is asking players in the organization about a variety of sign-stealing techniques, including buzzing Band-Aid-like wearable stickers, furtive earpieces, and pitch-picking algorithms, according to Jeff Passan of ESPN.

The wide-ranging accusations about the Astros' methods are stemming from other team officials, sources told Passan.

League officials have told the players who might have violated rules that telling the truth will help lower the severity of their punishments, Passan adds. Investigators have also asked to search the phones of certain members of the Astros' front office.

Executives and members of the team's coaching staff reportedly could face significant discipline. The league wants to find out the depth of the violations and what people in the organization knew, sources told Passan.

A number of Astros players are still expected to meet with investigators, and others who don't play in the majors anymore are refusing to cooperate, according to Passan.

Multiple owners of other clubs reportedly said at the owners meetings in Texas that they want the Astros to be punished severely with penalties such as suspensions, fines, and lost draft picks and international slot money.

Teams have grown so paranoid of Houston's alleged sign-stealing that the Washington Nationals reportedly used five sign sequences for pitchers during the 2019 World Series.

Geesh, the more info gets out the crazier it's getting.  Sounds like they are really starting to turn the screws on the players.. 

Looking forward the the movie, 25 Men Out....

2 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I'm glad they're at least thinking of punishing the players.  There couldn't be a better time for Arte to open up his wallet and set the halos up to win this year.  If mlb can take care of neutering the Astros in 2020 by suspending players to the point that it weakens their team by by 5-10 wins, that would be a great start.  

this is also gonna put a major dent in their free agent choices.  Wouldn't be surprised if most players avoid them like the plague at least until the sanctions come down which likely won't happen until the end of the off season.  

this is a great opportunity for the Angels  

If these new allegations are true then they may already be 5+ games worse regardless of player suspensions.  

It's one thing to have F-up, and end up with egg on your face... It's another to have your actions result in the entire league hating you and actively working to tear you down.  

What an ugly scene.

[Blarg]

I really doubt there will be player suspensions. MLB wants them to come clean but it would impossible to suspend a roster that included guys called up for short stints to cover injuries and players that moved on. They cheated as a team but it was under the rule of their management.

You can clean house of the coaching staff and that has to happen. You can clean house of the executives involved and anyone involved in the technology end. If a connection to ownership is established the franchise rights can be revoked and the team sold.

But you can't really suspend the over 60 players that have filtered in and out of the Astros organization over the last 3 years. There is no practical method.

[Blarg]

And the BBWA can apologize to Mike Trout for Betts and Altuve bringing home awards they cheated to get. 

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

I really doubt there will be player suspensions. MLB wants them to come clean but it would impossible to suspend a roster that included guys called up for short stints to cover injuries and players that moved on. They cheated as a team but it was under the rule of their management.

You can clean house of the coaching staff and that has to happen. You can clean house of the executives involved and anyone involved in the technology end. If a connection to ownership is established the franchise rights can be revoked and the team sold.

But you can't really suspend the over 60 players that have filtered in and out of the Astros organization over the last 3 years. There is no practical method.

if you hatch a fool proof plan to rob a house and you set up the entire thing and pay for all the equipment etc.  And when it comes time to do the actual burglary, you wait in the car while I go and execute your plan and then you drive us both away.  When we get caught, guess who's going to jail?  Both of us.  

If they need to spend some extra time being thoughtful about suspensions where they put a panel together and evaluate each player then I expect them to do their job and make an attempt to get it right.  Every player will have an opportunity to appeal.  

As part of the fine to the astros, they should also have to pay for the entire cost of the investigation.  

[Jay]

It's incredible to me that nobody, not one single player, on the 40-man roster in October 2017, came forward before now.

All of them had to know it was going on.

I still like my scarlet letter idea.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

21 hours ago, Hubs said:

The Reds are still listed as the winners of the 1919 Series, even though it's assumed that the White Sox (Black Sox) threw it.

My thoughts on punishment:

 

1) Vacate the entire 2019 and 2020 Astros draft classes. The whole thing.

2) Ban them from international signings for three years.

3) Maximum fines.

4) AJ Hinch, 2 year ban

5) Lunhow, lifetime ban

6) Cora and all other coaches involved in 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons, 1 year ban (INCLUDING BELTRAN).

7) Three years of locker room / dugout monitoring for Astros organization.

 

Throw the book at them. This is the third or fourth time they've been caught doing something unscrupulous under Lunhow. If the Braves guy got a lifetime ban for messing around with signings in the Dominican...this should be the same level of punishment.

 

 

MLB should estimate how much money the Astros gained from hosting post season games those three years and fine them that amount.

I like the monitoring idea, but make it longer, so every player on the roster has to turn over or re-sign with the team. This seems like a decent punishment for players.