Jump to content
  • Welcome to AngelsWin.com

    AngelsWin.com - THE Internet Home for Angels fans! Unraveling Angels Baseball ... One Thread at a Time.

    Register today to join the most interactive online Angels community on the net!

    Once you're a member you'll see less advertisements. Become a Premium member and you won't see any ads! 

     

IGNORED

Castellanos?


Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, ukyah said:

if it's a given that the angels are going to spend heavily on FA this winter

That’s the point I’m trying to raise though too...what if it’s not a given? Obviously they’re going to have to spend some, let’s say Cole, and they might have a lot to work with, rounding out lesser needs, let’s presume one-year vet SP, a bench bat, a cheap catcher, but part of the solution could just as easily be trading for a piece or two that’s affordable, such as a good, young arm, someone able to contribute in ‘20 (unlike Marsh) instead of spending money on that mid-tier pitching.

A scenario - we all know Cole is almost undoubtedly the top target, and the Angels still need another arm following. 
What's next? Say they've set aside something like Nate Eovaldi money for their second arm - 4/$68m - and identified Zack Wheeler, Madison Bumgarner, and Jake Odorizzi as the three guys they really like for that second arm. 
Problem is, Wheeler is now looking like a really hot commodity, and 4/$68m is looking increasingly unlikely, and Eppler isn't comfortable going much more than that. 
Bumgarner is emerging as a Braves priority - they have need, they have money, Bumgarner likes to hit, Bumgarner grew up a Braves fan - leading Eppler to think that they might not be favorites there. 
Odorizzi wound up receiving a QO, and while they likely weren't planning on spending something like 4/$68m on him, the fact that he has draft pick compensation on him now makes his far less desirable. 

Meanwhile, Castellanos' contract projections have him landing around...4/$68m.
Brandon Marsh had a red-hot fall that boosted his value. Maybe now teams are a lot more interested in him being the centerpiece in a deal for a good, young, controllable arm.
Rosters expand to 26, Pujols' new role can be DH/PH/1B - it's always been stated he'd sit more if there was a better bat ahead of him, and well, Castellanos would be that. 

It's simply trading places. Instead of the Angels sinking ~$70m into an arm, they sink it into a bat. 
Instead of getting 6 years of cost-controlled Marsh, they get an affordable impact arm. 

Keep in mind, Marsh likely isn't getting everyday playing time until the 2022 season at the earliest.
Those club-controlled value years are really helpful in 2022, 2023, 2024, yes, but that same trade value could help the 2020 payroll right now, which is a more pressing need as it's already tight and expecting to be the highest ever. 

Remember too, the Angels could have a really, really good, cheap, cost-controlled rotation in a couple seasons. It could be Cole, Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Suarez, Soriano, Yan. 
Fletcher, Thaiss, Rengifo could be a bulk of a cheap, everyday IF. The need to have a super cheap OF isn't as great, especially with more help scheduled to also land around the time Upton is done.
Adams could breakout next year and be close to ready around the same time Marsh would be moving into an everyday role. Knowles and Deveaux are further off, but a breakout season from either of them could move them up the charts quickly, especially as both hit Rule 5 eligibility before Adams, and only one year after Marsh.
 

Edited by totdprods
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Admit it: we all cringed at seeing the thread title, and a day later we are all coming around to this possibility and thinking of the potential sick lineups.

I'm not going to lie. While sick lineups will always be dear to my heart, dreaming of sick rotations is now my newfound love interest. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He made $9.9 million last year.  He's looking for an increase.

He hasn't played 3B since 2017 and he's never played 1B.

He's basically one dimensional as a defensive player.  AND he's going to cost a fair amount.

Mike Trout isn't getting any younger.  This team needs pitching now and they don't need another OF right now that everyone "hopes" can play 3B and 1B as well.

I am NOT thinking of "sick lineups."  I'm thinking about how crappy the pitching has been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Mike Trout isn't getting any younger.  This team needs pitching now and they don't need another OF right now that everyone "hopes" can play 3B and 1B as well.

I am NOT thinking of "sick lineups."  I'm thinking about how crappy the pitching has been.

Obviously, FA pitching is an option, but couldn't this also apply to signing offensive help now, instead of counting on rookies/unproven players like Thaiss, Rengifo, Adell, Marsh, Jones, Walsh (or an aging Pujols at 1B), and using those players to acquire pitching too? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Obviously, FA pitching is an option, but couldn't this also apply to signing offensive help now, instead of counting on rookies/unproven players like Thaiss, Rengifo, Adell, Marsh, Jones, Walsh (or an aging Pujols at 1B), and using those players to acquire pitching too? 

There is a much greater need for pitching, IMO. It's not even close. I don't know what people are projecting Castellanos to get in FA - but it has to be close to what they could have kept Calhoun for.  In this particular case, it just doesn't make sense. The only players you mentioned who have any "significant" trade value are Adell, Marsh and maybe Jones. I would hate the Angels to lose any of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, True Grich said:

There is a much greater need for pitching, IMO. It's not even close. I don't know what people are projecting Castellanos to get in FA - but it has to be close to what they could have kept Calhoun for.  In this particular case, it just doesn't make sense. The only players you mentioned who have any "significant" trade value are Adell, Marsh and maybe Jones. I would hate the Angels to lose any of them.

That's why I said trade for pitching.

I think it's safe to assume the Angels are going to sign one of Cole, Strasburg, Ryu, Wheeler, or Bumgarner to be their #1. They don't have much of a choice, they're going to spend what it takes, they have a need. 
After that it gets a lot trickier to guess what they'll do, or how the market will play out. Will the Cole sweepstakes cause them to miss landing their #2 target? Will the prices for their #2 target go far above what they want? 

The third-tier would be guys like Gibson, Pineda, Wood, Roark, Miley - there will likely be several of those guys available at any point in the offseason for a decent price, but none of them are really sure things. 

That leaves this enormous space between the top arm and the one-year vet depth, and it's hard to project how that will go. As long as that murky, ambiguous space exists, there will be an option on the table of trading prospects for that arm, and using said #2/mid-tier arm money for a bat to replace any prospect production dealt. And as such, we'll hear murmurs, unsubstantiated or not, about Angel interest in Castellanos or Moustakas or IF help, or stop-gap OFs. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

I mean, he wouldn't be a bad 1B right?

Let's face it. Pujols playing time is going to dwindle quite a bit over the next two seasons and if Castellanos can play 1B on days Ohtani DH's, then he can DH and Pujols play 1B on the three days in a row that Ohtani will get ready to pitch, pitch and then his day off after pitching. That's a lot of playing time, plus he can play in RF once in a while when we face a lefty to spell Brian Goodwin.

58 doubles, 27 HR and .525 slugging .pct is legit. He also usually hits around the .290 mark as well, so he puts the ball in play and hits the ball hella hard. 

If thats what hes brought in for, it makes some sense, its about the only way it does to me. 
Not sure what it says about the confidence in the kids in competition for that spot long term, probably that they are being shown the door.
Still kinda wonder why this is the priority?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really care how they put a pitching staff together, I just want to see one that's good enough to get them to the post season. I'd prefer they not trade Adell or Marsh. I don't know enough about the other prospects...

I like the idea of Cole Hamels and I read he's willing to take a one-year deal from a team that has a chance to win.

Gibson scares me.  Pineda still has 39 games left on his suspension. Wood is risky.  Roark - meh.  Miley - maybe. 

I'm guessing Odorizzi takes the qualifying offer.  Strasburg stays in DC and Bumgarner ends up in Atlanta or somewhere in the NL and not the AL.  Ryu seems possible. We all want Wheeler... everyone wants Wheeler... 

They have to get Cole or Wheeler, IMO.

The Angels have their work cut out for them. Again, I have no idea how they get to where they need to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

That’s the point I’m trying to raise though too...what if it’s not a given? Obviously they’re going to have to spend some, let’s say Cole, and they might have a lot to work with, rounding out lesser needs, let’s presume one-year vet SP, a bench bat, a cheap catcher, but part of the solution could just as easily be trading for a piece or two that’s affordable, such as a good, young arm, someone able to contribute in ‘20 (unlike Marsh) instead of spending money on that mid-tier pitching.

A scenario - we all know Cole is almost undoubtedly the top target, and the Angels still need another arm following. 
What's next? Say they've set aside something like Nate Eovaldi money for their second arm - 4/$68m - and identified Zack Wheeler, Madison Bumgarner, and Jake Odorizzi as the three guys they really like for that second arm. 
Problem is, Wheeler is now looking like a really hot commodity, and 4/$68m is looking increasingly unlikely, and Eppler isn't comfortable going much more than that. 
Bumgarner is emerging as a Braves priority - they have need, they have money, Bumgarner likes to hit, Bumgarner grew up a Braves fan - leading Eppler to think that they might not be favorites there. 
Odorizzi wound up receiving a QO, and while they likely weren't planning on spending something like 4/$68m on him, the fact that he has draft pick compensation on him now makes his far less desirable. 

Meanwhile, Castellanos' contract projections have him landing around...4/$68m.
Brandon Marsh had a red-hot fall that boosted his value. Maybe now teams are a lot more interested in him being the centerpiece in a deal for a good, young, controllable arm.
Rosters expand to 26, Pujols' new role can be DH/PH/1B - it's always been stated he'd sit more if there was a better bat ahead of him, and well, Castellanos would be that. 

It's simply trading places. Instead of the Angels sinking ~$70m into an arm, they sink it into a bat. 
Instead of getting 6 years of cost-controlled Marsh, they get an affordable impact arm. 

Keep in mind, Marsh likely isn't getting everyday playing time until the 2022 season at the earliest.
Those club-controlled value years are really helpful in 2022, 2023, 2024, yes, but that same trade value could help the 2020 payroll right now, which is a more pressing need as it's already tight and expecting to be the highest ever. 

Remember too, the Angels could have a really, really good, cheap, cost-controlled rotation in a couple seasons. It could be Cole, Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Suarez, Soriano, Yan. 
Fletcher, Thaiss, Rengifo could be a bulk of a cheap, everyday IF. The need to have a super cheap OF isn't as great, especially with more help scheduled to also land around the time Upton is done.
Adams could breakout next year and be close to ready around the same time Marsh would be moving into an everyday role. Knowles and Deveaux are further off, but a breakout season from either of them could move them up the charts quickly, especially as both hit Rule 5 eligibility before Adams, and only one year after Marsh.
 

Love this piece but i've got a few things:
Wheeler, Bumgarner and Wheeler all have QO's so if they're worried about that with Odorizzi then they'd be worried about that with Wheeler/Bumgarner as well.
Also, we'd have to assume Wheeler/Bumgarner would get interest from other teams so of could price goes up. That's how you win.

I like what you're saying with trading Marsh and other pieces for an affordable impact arm. Marsh with other pieces can line up with Mike Clevinger, but it'd have to be a good arm. Not someone that has potential in the future if we are talking about winning next year. 

Believing Sandoval, Suarez, Soriano and Yan will all reach potential is a far stretch. Realistically I only see Canning, Soriano and Sandoval becoming legit rotation pieces. Yan will be in bullpen and Suarez won't.

Rotation of: Cole, Clevinger, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Sandoval might work, but I think another solid pieces is needed for deep playoff runs. They need a Wheeler/Bumgarner to really make that push still.
Rotation for playoff push: Cole, Clevinger, Wheeler, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning.
lineup of: Fletcher, Castellanos, Trout, Ohtani, Upton, Simmons, Adell, LaStella, Sassi is a step up, but pitching is most crucial. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, True Grich said:

He made $9.9 million last year.  He's looking for an increase.

He hasn't played 3B since 2017 and he's never played 1B.

He's basically one dimensional as a defensive player.  AND he's going to cost a fair amount.

Mike Trout isn't getting any younger.  This team needs pitching now and they don't need another OF right now that everyone "hopes" can play 3B and 1B as well.

I am NOT thinking of "sick lineups."  I'm thinking about how crappy the pitching has been.

This team needs pitching, but it also has other needs.  If we do nothing but get pitching it doesnt solve all the issues.  Ive no issue with them looking at offensive items, but this one just doesnt scream need or priority to me unless were really planning to go ham.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, floplag said:

This team needs pitching, but it also has other needs.  If we do nothing but get pitching it doesnt solve all the issues.  Ive no issue with them looking at offensive items, but this one just doesnt scream need or priority to me unless were really planning to go ham.

I'd prefer they spend money on a catcher and not Castellanos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Love this piece but i've got a few things:
Wheeler, Bumgarner and Wheeler all have QO's so if they're worried about that with Odorizzi then they'd be worried about that with Wheeler/Bumgarner as well.
Also, we'd have to assume Wheeler/Bumgarner would get interest from other teams so of could price goes up. That's how you win.

I like what you're saying with trading Marsh and other pieces for an affordable impact arm. Marsh with other pieces can line up with Mike Clevinger, but it'd have to be a good arm. Not someone that has potential in the future if we are talking about winning next year. 

Believing Sandoval, Suarez, Soriano and Yan will all reach potential is a far stretch. Realistically I only see Canning, Soriano and Sandoval becoming legit rotation pieces. Yan will be in bullpen and Suarez won't.

Rotation of: Cole, Clevinger, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Sandoval might work, but I think another solid pieces is needed for deep playoff runs. They need a Wheeler/Bumgarner to really make that push still.
Rotation for playoff push: Cole, Clevinger, Wheeler, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning.
lineup of: Fletcher, Castellanos, Trout, Ohtani, Upton, Simmons, Adell, LaStella, Sassi is a step up, but pitching is most crucial. 

Arguably, Bumgarner and Wheeler are 'worth' losing a pick. Odorizzi is a bit more of a stretch, especially if receiving a $17.5m QO gives him and his agent the impression he's worth something comparable annually. 
Odorizzi at 3/$42m with no pick is alright. Odorizzi at 3/$33m losing a pick is good. Odorizzi expecting to get something like 3-4 at $17m/$18m AAV while losing a pick is awful, IMO - and while he might not get that, the Angels might see something like the Keuchel situation repeating, where player and agent hold out hope all winter for a big contract that never comes, a situation the Angels can't really afford to wait on....at least not out of the gate. 

It seems to already be a stretch that the Angels could afford Cole and one of the top arms after him. Not impossible, but not likely. Adding Castellanos to that seems beyond realistic. 
In my mind, it would be more along the lines of Cole, signing a Castellanos/Moustakas-type, signing some cheap/one-year SP help, and then trading offensive prospects for an arm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Arguably, Bumgarner and Wheeler are 'worth' losing a pick. Odorizzi is a bit more of a stretch, especially if receiving a $17.5m QO gives him and his agent the impression he's worth something comparable annually. 
Odorizzi at 3/$42m with no pick is alright. Odorizzi at 3/$33m losing a pick is good. Odorizzi expecting to get something like 3-4 at $17m/$18m AAV while losing a pick is awful, IMO - and while he might not get that, the Angels might see something like the Keuchel situation repeating, where player and agent hold out hope all winter for a big contract that never comes, a situation the Angels can't really afford to wait on....at least not out of the gate. 

It seems to already be a stretch that the Angels could afford Cole and one of the top arms after him. Not impossible, but not likely. Adding Castellanos to that seems beyond realistic. 
In my mind, it would be more along the lines of Cole, signing a Castellanos/Moustakas-type, signing some cheap/one-year SP help, and then trading offensive prospects for an arm. 

I just worry about that arm you're trading for. If you're trading away Marsh, who's raised his value, then it should be a good pitcher. I know he and a package would work for Clevinger so I'd be okay with that. Clevinger will make around $4.5M this year which is a great add for the Angels financially. We need for sure 2 good arms. Not Cole and some #5 guy to fill the rotation. Two starters that fit into the #1 and #2 spots will get it going and I'd be okay with Cole/Clevinger. 
Open payroll to $190M; current payroll at $146M:
Cole: $25M (backloaded)
Castellanos: $15M (slightly backloaded)
Clevinger: $4.5M
Payroll at $190.5M

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Not Cole and some #5 guy to fill the rotation.

That isn't what I suggested though...I suggested signing Cole and a #4-5 guy, someone more along the lines of depth/insurance, and then trading for someone comparable to a Wheeler/Odorizzi/Clevinger/Heaney/etc., and using that Wheeler money for a bat to replace the offense from whomever was dealt. 

Also, why would Cleveland trade Clevinger? If anyone's going, it's Kluber.

The trade candidate stable for a #2-3, or a #4 with upside, is a really broad spectrum. Darvish, Price, Kluber, Boyd, Syndergaard, Gray, Quintana, Hendricks, Stroman, Ray, Minor, Lynn, Newcomb, Archer, Mikolas. Some will cost a lot, some much less. Some will come with big salary commitments, some won't. It's real hard to speculate until we get additional info. 

That's why, until some pieces fall, there will exist the option of trading for a second arm and potentially signing a hitter to replenish what's dealt. It's not an argument for it, it's not an indicator of likeliness, just simply an open door until other pieces make it close or open further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...