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Trades, how far are you guys willing to go?


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14 hours ago, Second Base said:

You don't break up the Marsh Adell bromance that's going on. And you certainly don't trade one to the Dodgers. It'd be a giant middle finger to the portion of the fan base that actually know who Brandon Marsh is.

And even if it isn't, just don't trade Marsh. Don't trade Adams either. Certainly not Adell or Trout. Believe it or not, there's room for cc all of them. The Angels would just have to be ok with the Joe Maddon special, which is playing position players out of position to get their bat in the lineup.

2020: Upton in LF, Trout in CF, Goodwin in RF and Hermosillo as the 4th outfielder until Mid May. Then Adell in RF, Goodwin as the 4th OF and Hermosillo in AAA with Marsh. Jordyn Adams is in advanced A Ball. Marsh gets a late season call up. Over the winter, picks up a 1B mitt for versatility.

2021: Upton in LF, Trout in CF, Adell in RF, Marsh platoons at 1B and starts stealing a few AB's from Upton in LF. Hermosillo is the 4th/5th outfielder on the active roster. Jordyn Adams is in AA.

2022: Upton splits his time between DH and LF. When he isn't in LF, Adell is, which moves Marsh to RF. Trout is still in CF. Adell mostly in RF. Marsh plays mostly 1B, except the two days a week Upton is the DH. Jordyn Adams is in AAA and gets a late season call up.

2023: Trout moves to LF and DH's when Ohtani isn't. Jordyn Adams is in CF. Adell is in RF, Marsh at 1B.

 

Marsh is perhaps the best defender out of all of those outfielders listed, even Adams (close call probably compared to Jordyn).

One of those non-Trout guys will be traded at some future point.

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30 minutes ago, ettin said:

Marsh is perhaps the best defender out of all of those outfielders listed, even Adams (close call probably compared to Jordyn).

One of those non-Trout guys will be traded at some future point.

Marsh isn't perhaps the best defender of the group, he IS the best defender of the group. But just because you're good at one spot in the field doesn't mean that's where you'll play. Trout moved to LF because they needed his bat in the lineup when Bourjos still played CF. Erstad moved to 1B to keep his bat in the lineup. Maddon moved Zobrist to RF almost permanently to keep his bat in the lineup. He moved Javy Baez off SS despite the fact that he's gold glove caliber there. He played 2B and CF.

There's no reason Marsh can't move to 1B.

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1 minute ago, Second Base said:

Marsh isn't perhaps the best defender of the group, he IS the best defender of the group. But just because you're good at one spot in the field doesn't mean that's where you'll play. Trout moved to LF because they needed his bat in the lineup when Bourjos still played CF. Erstad moved to 1B to keep his bat in the lineup. Maddon moved Zobrist to RF almost permanently to keep his bat in the lineup. He moved Javy Baez off SS despite the fact that he's gold glove caliber there. He played 2B and CF.

There's no reason Marsh can't move to 1B.

But that is the exact point, he would be a complete waste defensively at 1B? You' d be better off moving Trout there if we think he is the future LF.....

Respectfully I think you are holding on to tight to all of our outfielders, every single one of them belong in the outfield long-term, even Trout (although I agree he moves to LF sooner rather than later). Finding homes for good players makes some level of sense but in this case I don't think your proposed shuffle is going to be viable. Also there is no guarantee that the three prospects all pan out at the Major League level so this is really a speculative exercise at this point (fun to think about but reality will set in down the road).

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4 minutes ago, ettin said:

But that is the exact point, he would be a complete waste defensively at 1B? You' d be better off moving Trout there if we think he is the future LF.....

Respectfully I think you are holding on to tight to all of our outfielders, every single one of them belong in the outfield long-term, even Trout (although I agree he moves to LF sooner rather than later). Finding homes for good players makes some level of sense but in this case I don't think your proposed shuffle is going to be viable. Also there is no guarantee that the three prospects all pan out at the Major League level so this is really a speculative exercise at this point (fun to think about but reality will set in down the road).

You're not going to tell the greatest player in franchise history and perhaps ever, to move. Marsh is left handed, has the height, he can play 1B.

Regardless of motivation, there's no denying if the Angels indeed want to have Trout, Adell, Marsh and Adams all on the team, they can swing it.

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18 minutes ago, Second Base said:

But just because you're good at one spot in the field doesn't mean that's where you'll play. Trout moved to LF because they needed his bat in the lineup when Bourjos still played CF.

 

5 minutes ago, Second Base said:

You're not going to tell the greatest player in franchise history and perhaps ever, to move. Marsh is left handed, has the height, he can play 1B.

Regardless of motivation, there's no denying if the Angels indeed want to have Trout, Adell, Marsh and Adams all on the team, they can swing it.

Your statements are beginning to confuse me.

Hunter taught Trout well and there will be a point in time where Trout will make a lateral move over to LF. Might be 2-3 years from now it might be 5-7 years from now, I really don't care because I think Mike wants to win and he will know when that time comes because he is a responsible player.

Keeping all of these bats in the lineup is not an impossibility but I think it is highly improbable because all four of them are good, competent outfielders and their value is greatest in those roles and there are only three positions to fill. Could they rotate one of them through 1B or DH? Sure. Might be Trout as a matter of fact. Does it make sense for the club? Not as much in my opinion until we get to the tail-end of Mike's contract.

We will just have to agree to disagree here Scotty.

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1 minute ago, ettin said:

 

Your statements are beginning to confuse me.

Hunter taught Trout well and there will be a point in time where Trout will make a lateral move over to LF. Might be 2-3 years from now it might be 5-7 years from now, I really don't care because I think Mike wants to win and he will know when that time comes because he is a responsible player.

Keeping all of these bats in the lineup is not an impossibility but I think it is highly improbable because all four of them are good, competent outfielders and their value is greatest in those roles and there are only three positions to fill. Could they rotate one of them through 1B or DH? Sure. Might be Trout as a matter of fact. Does it make sense for the club? Not as much in my opinion until we get to the tail-end of Mike's contract.

We will just have to agree to disagree here Scotty.

How are you confused by this? Marsh is ready soon. Either this year it next, and you said you're better off moving Trout. I explained to you that you aren't coming to Trout right now to tell him to move.

You use Hunter as an example, yet make no mention of his age when he moved. Mike Trout is 28, ettin. Not 35.

Maybe they trade one, maybe they don't. But there is no part of this situation that says they have to. 

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4 minutes ago, Second Base said:

How are you confused by this? Marsh is ready soon. Either this year it next, and you said you're better off moving Trout. I explained to you that you aren't coming to Trout right now to tell him to move.

You use Hunter as an example, yet make no mention of his age when he moved. Mike Trout is 28, ettin. Not 35.

Maybe they trade one, maybe they don't. But there is no part of this situation that says they have to. 

Scotty stop trying so hard, go re-read everything I wrote. I am done with this conversation.

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Look in the mirror ettin. I've already rewritten what you couldn't understand. The fact that there are multiple examples of players moving positions they're good at runs counter to your original point. Rather than simply saying good point, you say you don't understand. 

Figure it out.... Or don't. I could care less. But stop pretending like someone else is wrong.

 

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5 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Look in the mirror ettin. I've already rewritten what you couldn't understand. The fact that there are multiple examples of players moving positions they're good at runs counter to your original point. Rather than simply saying good point, you say you don't understand. 

Figure it out.... Or don't. I could care less. But stop pretending like someone else is wrong.

 

I have a better idea Scotty, I am just going to mute you, it will save me a lot of typing. Good luck to you.

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50 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Regardless of motivation, there's no denying if the Angels indeed want to have Trout, Adell, Marsh and Adams all on the team, they can swing it.

I'm not going to argue with everything else, but this is really all you had to say. If the organization wants all 4 of those guys on the team, they'll find a way to make it happen. 

But I will argue one thing: Some players are simply worth more as currency than as contributors to the team on the field. If Adams takes a huge step forward in 2020, he becomes expendable. Do the Angels hold on to him because of everything you just said, or do they package him for something of need right now? Generally you want to hold on to your absolute best prospects, but when you start to gain wealth in the system, particularly at a specific position, guys become expendable. If this weren't the case no one would ever trade anyone. Ever. 

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25 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I'm not going to argue with everything else, but this is really all you had to say. If the organization wants all 4 of those guys on the team, they'll find a way to make it happen. 

But I will argue one thing: Some players are simply worth more as currency than as contributors to the team on the field. If Adams takes a huge step forward in 2020, he becomes expendable. Do the Angels hold on to him because of everything you just said, or do they package him for something of need right now? Generally you want to hold on to your absolute best prospects, but when you start to gain wealth in the system, particularly at a specific position, guys become expendable. If this weren't the case no one would ever trade anyone. Ever. 

Like Stoneman.

And I agree with you.  Wealth distribution within the farm system is uneven.  But at this point in time, I'd be more willing to trade Jahmai Jones and Will Wilson, then I would be of trading Brandon Marsh or Jordyn Adams.  Jones and Wilson are both good players.  But the media still hasn't caught onto Marsh or Adams yet.  There aren't many guys like them in the minor leagues.  Maybe it's the football background, I don't know.  But that combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism aren't easy to find.  I mean you look on the Top 100 list, and there are better players than both Marsh and Adams, right now.  But I don't see a single outfielder with their athletcism, not even Jo Adell (which is debatable, Adell's athleticism is somewhere in the vicinity of Marsh's, but not Adams).  And I see very few that are going to make as big of an impact in the big leagues as I believe they will make. 

We all know about Marsh in the AFL.  And those reports have been glowing.  It's so cool we have that level of coverage now.  Reports are scant on Jordyn Adams, but word has leaked out and been confirmed that he was by far the most impressive player on the field during instructs.  Once his route reading is improved, his defensive ability will put both Marsh and Adell's to shame.  And he's just beginning to fill out too. He may have an easier time lifting the ball than Marsh too.  I'm seeing a player going into Advanced A Ball next year that's going to be as strong as Adell and Marsh, but faster and more athletic than both. 

Now I understand that's exactly the sort of player other teams want.  But the Angels system didn't get rebuilt in three years by trading away value as soon as it's built.  The Angels have money to spend, and holes to fill.  I'd focus more on spending the money to get the right personnel, and not giving up the right personnel in the future for the right personnel now.

Just imagine if Dipoto never traded Segura or Clevinger. Just imagine if Eppler never traded for Rengifo, or traded Fletcher or Canning.  Again, I think Stoneman is the best GM this team has ever had, and I think he had it right.  He's the architect responsible for the success between 2002-2009, and he did it by hoarding prospects, for better or for worse.  He drafted great he traded great, he did extremely well in Latin America, and he held onto the value he had. 

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1 hour ago, RBM said:

Cody Bellinger is another good example. He won a gold glove in RF this year but still played 36 games at 1B. There is value in a guy like Marsh learning to play 1B also.

And Bellinger is one of those guys that learned how to lift the ball once he reached the major leagues too.  Something that I think Marsh will do.  

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Marsh will stay in the OF. He’s not gonna have a bat like Trout did in the first years of his career. I could see him being the 4th OF behind Adell, Trout and Upton and also riding the SLC express at times. Adams will not be ready for a full time roll until Upton is off the books and at that point, Pujols will also be off the books. So you do need a 1B. And that might be Trout or Adell.

In 2023, Trout will be in his Age 31 season,  he could be the guy that goes to 1st.

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12 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Marsh will stay in the OF. He’s not gonna have a bat like Trout did in the first years of his career. I could see him being the 4th OF behind Adell, Trout and Upton and also riding the SLC express at times. Adams will not be ready for a full time roll until Upton is off the books and at that point, Pujols will also be off the books. So you do need a 1B. And that might be Trout or Adell.

In 2023, Trout will be in his Age 31 season,  he could be the guy that goes to 1st.

And that's another way it could work out. Lots of options that don't require the trading of top assets.

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54 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Like Stoneman.

And I agree with you.  Wealth distribution within the farm system is uneven.  But at this point in time, I'd be more willing to trade Jahmai Jones and Will Wilson, then I would be of trading Brandon Marsh or Jordyn Adams.  Jones and Wilson are both good players.  But the media still hasn't caught onto Marsh or Adams yet.  There aren't many guys like them in the minor leagues.  Maybe it's the football background, I don't know.  But that combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism aren't easy to find.  I mean you look on the Top 100 list, and there are better players than both Marsh and Adams, right now.  But I don't see a single outfielder with their athletcism, not even Jo Adell (which is debatable, Adell's athleticism is somewhere in the vicinity of Marsh's, but not Adams).  And I see very few that are going to make as big of an impact in the big leagues as I believe they will make. 

We all know about Marsh in the AFL.  And those reports have been glowing.  It's so cool we have that level of coverage now.  Reports are scant on Jordyn Adams, but word has leaked out and been confirmed that he was by far the most impressive player on the field during instructs.  Once his route reading is improved, his defensive ability will put both Marsh and Adell's to shame.  And he's just beginning to fill out too. He may have an easier time lifting the ball than Marsh too.  I'm seeing a player going into Advanced A Ball next year that's going to be as strong as Adell and Marsh, but faster and more athletic than both. 

Now I understand that's exactly the sort of player other teams want.  But the Angels system didn't get rebuilt in three years by trading away value as soon as it's built.  The Angels have money to spend, and holes to fill.  I'd focus more on spending the money to get the right personnel, and not giving up the right personnel in the future for the right personnel now.

Just imagine if Dipoto never traded Segura or Clevinger. Just imagine if Eppler never traded for Rengifo, or traded Fletcher or Canning.  Again, I think Stoneman is the best GM this team has ever had, and I think he had it right.  He's the architect responsible for the success between 2002-2009, and he did it by hoarding prospects, for better or for worse.  He drafted great he traded great, he did extremely well in Latin America, and he held onto the value he had. 

Can some list the great trades of Stoneman?  

I know he built the Farm as one of the best.  I know he signed some i.oact free agents.  I don't remember any meaningful trades 

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17 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Can some list the great trades of Stoneman?  

I know he built the Farm as one of the best.  I know he signed some i.oact free agents.  I don't remember any meaningful trades 

He built the farm by not trading anyone.  If you look at Stoneman’s drafts you’ll be unimpressed.  

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1 hour ago, stormngt said:

Can some list the great trades of Stoneman?  

I know he built the Farm as one of the best.  I know he signed some i.oact free agents.  I don't remember any meaningful trades 

Off the top of my head -- Kimera Bartee for Figgins.   Cooper for Fullmer.  Mo Vaughn for Kevin Appier.   All three of those trades resulted in pretty meaningful outcomes.

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Did a little researching of Stoneman’s drafts.  His best draft picks are the following:

Weaver, Harvey (unsigned), Howie, Trumbo, Adenhart (RIP), SRod, Saunders, Jepsen, Mathis, Conger, Bourjos, Maldonado, Walden, Jenks. 

So a few All Stars but the closest to a perennial all star would be Weaver.  Howie is the best offensive player he drafted.  

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