THE Official 2019-2020 Hot Stove Thread

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

 

Astros beat writer saying this.  

LOL if this is another Boob Nightengale oopsie.

[mmc]

 

[mmc]

I would’ve wanted Jeffress at this amount

[Tank]

18 hours ago, Lou said:

One of the least enjoyable things in sports to watch is a pitcher trying to hit. 

the one thing i'd like to see change about the DH is that a manager can substitute for him without penalty. i think if you try to sub for a DH now, your pitcher has to hit. i don't like this part.

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, Angel Dog and Beer said:

I'll add more: Shaq shooting free throws. DeChambeau setting up to hit a golf ball. Women's MMA. NASCAR. Punters/kickers trying to run or throw. Soccer flops. 

Maybe we can get rid of these too?

[AngelsLakersFan]

14 hours ago, Dochalo said:

It's because of the DH that makes Ohtani a more effective weapon.  His talent was going to find it's way no matter what.  

I don't really see this. If there was no DH Ohtani would be playing left field while being a significantly more valuable player. None of the other two-way guys are likely to ever have any value in the AL because there just isn't a lot of value in being the worst hitter and worst pitcher on a team.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't really see this. If there was no DH Ohtani would be playing left field while being a significantly more valuable player. None of the other two-way guys are likely to ever have any value in the AL because there just isn't a lot of value in being the worst hitter and worst pitcher on a team.

With the exception of the young guy in Tampa. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

Just now, Stradling said:

With the exception of the young guy in Tampa. 

Which one?

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Which one?

Brendan McKay. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Brendan McKay. 

He looks more like an OK hitting pitcher

[mmc]

 

[mmc]

 

[Angel Oracle]

22 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This is a chicken / egg situation. Pitchers are getting worse at hitting because they are expected to do it less and less. If the stated goal was to simply remove pitcher hitting from the game then they would be far better off simply removing the pitchers spot from the offensive lineup.

The game has always been about a balance of skills, not speciality. Weakness and speciality has always come with a cost and that is part of the beauty of the game. The DH is counter to that and the side effects it introduces - decreased strategy, limited bench utility, increased bullpen utility - are as well.

I am fine with the current set up where people are free to choose the style of game they prefer. Any attempt to push the DH to the NL should include some compromise that reduces it's negative impact on the game and the loss of the strategic component that will come with it.

The problem is that every level from HS up, other than the NL, utilizes the DH.   Pitchers aren't developing their hitting skills sufficiently in order to, as a group, be able to produce often enough at the plate like they did back in the days where pitchers like Drysdale, Hampton, Willis, Brett, and Cloninger were threats at the plate.    Who are the threats in the NL anymore, other than MadBum from 2014-2017 (over .700 OPS)?

[mmc]

 

[Pancake Bear]

34 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

 

Oh no. WTH, Eppy? Do something! Geez...

[mmc]

 

[mmc]

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

The problem is that every level from HS up, other than the NL, utilizes the DH.   Pitchers aren't developing their hitting skills sufficiently in order to, as a group, be able to produce often enough at the plate like they did back in the days where pitchers like Drysdale, Hampton, Willis, Brett, and Cloninger were threats at the plate.    Who are the threats in the NL anymore, other than MadBum from 2014-2017 (over .700 OPS)?

That's part of the point I'm making. Because of the DH kids who pitch stop hitting at a young age and then never develop in the minor leagues. Then people complain about pitcher hitting in the NL.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

That's part of the point I'm making. Because of the DH kids who pitch stop hitting at a young age and then never develop in the minor leagues. Then people complain about pitcher hitting in the NL.

the DH has been in play since 1973

that's 47 years or so.  but let's just look at pitcher hitting for the last 20 years or so which means there was 27 years of game evolution prior to that.  And let's also look at the 20 years prior to the start of the DH.  

2000-2019 
pitcher ops is about .344

1953-1972
pitcher ops is about .370.  

it's doesn't look like it really would have mattered.  

the irony is that the potential evolution of the two way player has actually started during a time where we have the DH.  

they literally had 100 years to figure out how to make pitchers into capable hitters and couldn't. 

football players used to wear leather helmets (maybe they still should actually) and there used to be no shot clock and no dunking in basketball.  

there's probably been some negative impact the game by having the DH but it's seems the positives outweigh those by a decent margin.   
 

 

[tdawg87]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

no dunking in basketball. 

Tbf this was more because of the uh...talent of the players.

[Stradling]

 

[mmc]

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

13 hours ago, Dochalo said:

the DH has been in play since 1973

that's 47 years or so.  but let's just look at pitcher hitting for the last 20 years or so which means there was 27 years of game evolution prior to that.  And let's also look at the 20 years prior to the start of the DH.  

2000-2019 
pitcher ops is about .344

1953-1972
pitcher ops is about .370.  

it's doesn't look like it really would have mattered.  

the irony is that the potential evolution of the two way player has actually started during a time where we have the DH.  

they literally had 100 years to figure out how to make pitchers into capable hitters and couldn't. 

football players used to wear leather helmets (maybe they still should actually) and there used to be no shot clock and no dunking in basketball.  

there's probably been some negative impact the game by having the DH but it's seems the positives outweigh those by a decent margin.   

You can't argue it both ways though. You can't argue that you don't want to see players who haven't had a pro at bat start hitting in the big leagues and then argue that that hasn't really had a significant impact.

The point is about how you see the nature of the game of baseball. For almost all of it's history it has been a game of trade offs, where players balance their strengths and weaknesses, being positioned and subbed in and out in order to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. No one wants to see catchers bat either, or to watch guys like Many Ramirez butcher defense in left field. If the argument is that there are obviously players who are better at different components of the game then the ultimate end game of the pro DH argument is 50+ player rosters, unlimited substitutions and different lineups for offense and defense.

[mmc]

 

[Docwaukee]

39 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

You can't argue it both ways though. You can't argue that you don't want to see players who haven't had a pro at bat start hitting in the big leagues and then argue that that hasn't really had a significant impact.

The point is about how you see the nature of the game of baseball. For almost all of it's history it has been a game of trade offs, where players balance their strengths and weaknesses, being positioned and subbed in and out in order to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. No one wants to see catchers bat either, or to watch guys like Many Ramirez butcher defense in left field. If the argument is that there are obviously players who are better at different components of the game then the ultimate end game of the pro DH argument is 50+ player rosters, unlimited substitutions and different lineups for offense and defense.

I'm not sure I did argue that but if that's how it came across then it's not what I intended.  I think a player's talent will dictate where they end up and that it's not the DH rule that has restricted access to two way players or guys on the mound from hitting and vice versa.  I think that's just the way the game has evolved.  Could it have been different had the DH not been there?  Maybe.  

Teams have an option to not put Manny on defense.  Teams in the AL also have an option to let their pitcher hit.  But there are limits and shades of gray as to how many options are realistic to make the game functional.  The DH seems functional to me.  It's my opinion that it doesn't take away from the game and hasn't devolved any part of it.  If for 50 years the catching position suddenly turned into something so specialized defensively that the avg. hitting catcher had a -10 wRC+ then I would hope mlb would consider changes to reconcile that.  We can take any example at any position to extreme but that's not where the game truly lives.  

I don't want to watch the pitcher hit.  There's more value to me in seeing someone else hit than the collateral of having the DH rule.