THE Official 2019-2020 Hot Stove Thread

[Pancake Bear]

I like Jayson Stark typically, but his DH hybrid idea is one of the dumbest I’ve ever heard. I understand what he’s thinking, but I don’t think he’s thought it through enough. It’s a really bad idea. 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

I like Jayson Stark typically, but his DH hybrid idea is one of the dumbest I’ve ever heard. I understand what he’s thinking, but I don’t think he’s thought it through enough. It’s a really bad idea. 

Man, I kinda dig it.  It encourages a manager to keep him starting pitcher in the game.  It then requires pinch hitting for the rest of the game.  I actually think it is a good idea.  

[Pancake Bear]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Man, I kinda dig it.  It encourages a manager to keep him starting pitcher in the game.  It then requires pinch hitting for the rest of the game.  I actually think it is a good idea.  

It sounds good until you dig into it.

Starting pitcher doesn’t have it that day. Gets shelled in the first inning. Now you not only lose your SP, you basically have zero chance to come back because the DH is removed as well. It’s supreme BS. It will make blowouts that much worse. Then you’re stuck either forcing a reliever to hit or using up everyone on the bench. No one in baseball will go for this. 

The only scenario it really makes sense for is when the starter goes like 5-7 innings. Even then I’m not crazy about it, but IMO it becomes a crapfest really quickly.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Man, I kinda dig it.  It encourages a manager to keep him starting pitcher in the game.  It then requires pinch hitting for the rest of the game.  I actually think it is a good idea.  

It's certainly better than just adding the DH to the NL. Whatever they decide it should be something that encourages strategy rather than discourages it, and encourages the use of position players on the bench rather than relief pitchers - things the DH all discourages.

[AngelsLakersFan]

8 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

It sounds good until you dig into it.

Starting pitcher doesn’t have it that day. Gets shelled in the first inning. Now you not only lose your SP, you basically have zero chance to come back because the DH is removed as well. It’s supreme BS. It will make blowouts that much worse. Then you’re stuck either forcing a reliever to hit or using up everyone on the bench. No one in baseball will go for this. 

The only scenario it really makes sense for is when the starter goes like 5-7 innings. Even then I’m not crazy about it, but IMO it becomes a crapfest really quickly.  

Just let the manager keep one of his players active after pinch hitting for the pitcher.  Either the pitcher comes back out or the pinch hitter survives to be used again. It accomplishes the same thing as Stark's solution but without the baggage you bring up.

[Pancake Bear]

10 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Just let the manager keep one of his players active after pinch hitting for the pitcher.  Either the pitcher comes back out or the pinch hitter survives to be used again. It accomplishes the same thing as Stark's solution but without the baggage you bring up.

There is nothing wrong with the DH. It’s fine the way it is. Why we need a solution is beyond me. 

[Hubs]

29 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Man, I kinda dig it.  It encourages a manager to keep him starting pitcher in the game.  It then requires pinch hitting for the rest of the game.  I actually think it is a good idea.  

It also does away with the opener.

[AngelsLakersFan]

14 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

There is nothing wrong with the DH. It’s fine the way it is. Why we need a solution is beyond me. 

There is no rational reason for the DH to exist beyond vain attempts at increasing homeruns and offense. When people talk 'solutions' they are all in reference to subtle issues the implementation of the DH has created.

[Pancake Bear]

20 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

There is no rational reason for the DH to exist beyond vain attempts at increasing homeruns and offense. When people talk 'solutions' they are all in reference to subtle issues the implementation of the DH has created.

It exists because pitchers can’t hit and never will be able to. It made sense in the 1800’s when hitting was primitive. They pitch once every five days. It just isn’t possible to be anything other than garbage in a specialized field with so few game reps.

The DH has been discussed for nearly a century. It finally made it to the AL a few decades ago. How it took so long and why it hasn’t gone to all of baseball is a mystery. Pitchers don’t even really hit in high school anymore if they’re heading to big leagues. Except in rare instances where guys can do both and want to, pitchers should never have to hit. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

27 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

It exists because pitchers can’t hit and never will be able to. It made sense in the 1800’s when hitting was primitive. They pitch once every five days. It just isn’t possible to be anything other than garbage in a specialized field with so few game reps.

The DH has been discussed for nearly a century. It finally made it to the AL a few decades ago. How it took so long and why it hasn’t gone to all of baseball is a mystery. Pitchers don’t even really hit in high school anymore if they’re heading to big leagues. Except in rare instances where guys can do both and want to, pitchers should never have to hit. 

This is a chicken / egg situation. Pitchers are getting worse at hitting because they are expected to do it less and less. If the stated goal was to simply remove pitcher hitting from the game then they would be far better off simply removing the pitchers spot from the offensive lineup.

The game has always been about a balance of skills, not speciality. Weakness and speciality has always come with a cost and that is part of the beauty of the game. The DH is counter to that and the side effects it introduces - decreased strategy, limited bench utility, increased bullpen utility - are as well.

I am fine with the current set up where people are free to choose the style of game they prefer. Any attempt to push the DH to the NL should include some compromise that reduces it's negative impact on the game and the loss of the strategic component that will come with it.

[floplag]

3 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

So the starting pitchers wouldn't bat, but the relievers, who pitch even less, would? That would be messed up.

I agree, just passing on what i read for discussion

[greginpsca]

On 1/6/2020 at 12:39 PM, RendZone said:

 

How about implementing the same dh rule as the AL?  That way in the playoffs and interleague play, they all play by the same damn rules.

[Claude]

10 minutes ago, greginpsca said:

How about implementing the same dh rule as the AL?  That way in the playoffs and interleague play, they all play by the same damn rules.

I completely agree that both leagues should follow the same rules. I’m not a fan of the DH but it’s probably going to end up in both leagues. 

[Lou]

One of the least enjoyable things in sports to watch is a pitcher trying to hit. 

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

One of the least enjoyable things in sports to watch is a pitcher trying to hit. 

agree.  so dumb.  a guy with zero minor league at bats trying to hit major league pitching.  

[Pancake Bear]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This is a chicken / egg situation. Pitchers are getting worse at hitting because they are expected to do it less and less. If the stated goal was to simply remove pitcher hitting from the game then they would be far better off simply removing the pitchers spot from the offensive lineup.

The game has always been about a balance of skills, not speciality. Weakness and speciality has always come with a cost and that is part of the beauty of the game. The DH is counter to that and the side effects it introduces - decreased strategy, limited bench utility, increased bullpen utility - are as well.

I am fine with the current set up where people are free to choose the style of game they prefer. Any attempt to push the DH to the NL should include some compromise that reduces it's negative impact on the game and the loss of the strategic component that will come with it.

How exactly will a pitcher *ever* get proficient at hitting when they only play (part of) one game every five days? You realize hitting is hard, yeah? 

[AngelsLakersFan]

18 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

How exactly will a pitcher *ever* get proficient at hitting when they only play (part of) one game every five days? You realize hitting is hard, yeah? 

It's hard?

Have you ever heard of Shohei Ohtani?

[AngelsLakersFan]

Look, the point I'm making is that we are seeing guys like Jared Walsh and Kaleb Cowart and some dudes who we have drafted recently show that maybe you can be more than just a hitter or a pitcher. Teams have been punting on pitchers hitting for years now because of the DH and I think that has been a mistake. When you tell pitchers to stop hitting in high school you are creating a self fulfilling prophesy. 

[Pancake Bear]

17 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It's hard?

Have you ever heard of Shohei Ohtani?

A freak of nature? So, throw out all the examples that show how freaking hard it is to hit or pitch, and how many incredible athletes can’t even sniff the majors, but sure, Ohtani can do it so it’s totally plausible that 150 other guys can do it. 

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Look, the point I'm making is that we are seeing guys like Jared Walsh and Kaleb Cowart and some dudes who we have drafted recently show that maybe you can be more than just a hitter or a pitcher. Teams have been punting on pitchers hitting for years now because of the DH and I think that has been a mistake. When you tell pitchers to stop hitting in high school you are creating a self fulfilling prophesy. 

Those are position players who can barely hit (Walsh) or not really at all (Cowart). And their two way careers are already over unless they can show they’re able to do it really well, given the new parameters on two-way players. The only reason either was even attempting pitching in the first place is to add just enough value to their repertoire to stick in the majors. 

You've got it about as backwards as possible. The league hasn’t kept pitchers from learning to hit. They’ve tried for over a century to prove they can. The whole thing has been a colossal failure and now they’re finally killing it by a thousand cuts - eliminating it at lower levels so that no one wants it anymore. 

[Docwaukee]

the DH is optional.  You don't have to use it.  AL teams could just forego.  

If someone is potentially good enough to hit at the major league level, it's not gonna get discovered there.  

It's because of the DH that makes Ohtani a more effective weapon.  His talent was going to find it's way no matter what.  

I'll pass on finding the occasional Jared Walsh, Kaleb Cowart and Michael Lorenzen if I don't have to watch the other 5000 PA per year where the pitcher hits to a -18 wRC+.  Where they walk at a 3.1% rate and k at a 43.4% rate when the pitcher is almost throwing the ball down the damn middle.  

I'll also pass on teams in the NL constantly walking the #8 guy in run scoring situations so they can face the pitcher which effectively takes out another lineup spot.   

[happybat4]

Maybe I'm rare but I enjoy watching pitchers hit. I know they usually strike out, but I like it when they do get on base and the pitchers who gave up the hit look pissed. 

[floplag]

14 hours ago, Lou said:

One of the least enjoyable things in sports to watch is a pitcher trying to hit. 

THIS!!!!   99% of pitchers literally could not hit water falling out of a boat.  Its the most pathetic thing in sport today.   and in a time when bunting no longer has value, what is gained with this?
I truly dont understand what the so-called purists are trying to protect at this point.   And i'm sorry but if the vaunted double switch excites you, you need more excitement in your life.
There is little to know repercussions allowed in the game any more so the whole "pitcher has to bat in the next inning and face the music " thing is also moot. 
Can someone tell me why this is even a discussion at this point without using the word purist?  Games evolve, things change, this one need to go away. 

[Stradling]

 

[Angel Dog and Beer]

15 hours ago, Lou said:

One of the least enjoyable things in sports to watch is a pitcher trying to hit. 

I'll add more: Shaq shooting free throws. DeChambeau setting up to hit a golf ball. Women's MMA. NASCAR. Punters/kickers trying to run or throw. Soccer flops. 

[Lou]

18 minutes ago, Angel Dog and Beer said:

I'll add more: Shaq shooting free throws. DeChambeau setting up to hit a golf ball. Women's MMA. NASCAR. Punters/kickers trying to run or throw. Soccer flops. 

That's funny. I was going to mention "NBA centers shooting free throws"