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Could the Angels build a Washington Nationals type rotation this offseason?

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3 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

Yes, that’s the point. Fletch said Arte cares primarily about the payroll, not the luxury tax. 

Seems like he cares about the luxury tax also, since he hasn't come close to it in years. l hope that changes this off season...

Edited by Ace-Of-Diamonds

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5 hours ago, totdprods said:

2020:

  • Rotation: Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Sandoval, Barria, Suarez, Peters
  • Bullpen: Robles, Buttrey, Bedrosian, Anderson, Middleton, Cole, maybe Bard, maybe Ortega
  • Infield: Stassi, Pujols, Fletcher, Rengifo, Simmons, La Stella, Thaiss, Ward, Cozart, Walsh, Jones, probably Rojas
  • Outfield: Upton, Trout, Goodwin, Hermosillo, Adell, maybe Lund
  • DH: Ohtani
    • The Angels will gain a little bit of IF and OF reinforcement with Adell, Jones, and maybe Rojas all likely to join the 40-man at some point in '20. The bullpen might see some help in Ortega.
    • The Angels will also lose some of their IF depth via FA at end of year, with Cozart almost definitely gone, and likely one of La Stella/Simmons.
  • 2021
    • Rotation: Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Sandoval, Barria, Suarez, Peters, Soriano, Yan, Rodriguez
    • Bullpen: Robles, Buttrey, Bedrosian, Anderson, Middleton, Cole, Beasley, Mattson, maybe Ortega, Bard
    • Infield: Stassi, Pujols, Fletcher, Rengifo, Ward, Thaiss, Walsh, Jones, probably Rojas, maybe Soto, maybe Maitan
    • Outfield: Upton, Trout, Goodwin, Hermosillo, Adell, Marsh, maybe Lund
    • DH: Ohtani
      • The Angels are on track to add a ton of upper-end pitching talent - Soriano, Yan Rodriguez, Mattson, and Beasley's versatility - important as our best SP and two best RPs hit FA.
      • The Angels might have two potentially dynamic infielders to add - Soto's glove, discipline, and speed might give him good UT IF opps, Maitan could boom or bust.
      • Marsh is a significant add to the outfield.
      • Pujols' mega-deal comes off payroll. 
  • 2022:
    • Rotation: Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Barria, Suarez, Peters, Soriano, Yan, Rodriguez, Bradish, Aquino
    • Bullpen: Buttrey, Anderson, Middleton, Cole, Beasley, Ortega, Mattson, Hernandez, Bard, Pina
    • Infield: Stassi, Fletcher, Rengifo, Ward, Thaiss, Walsh, Jones, Rojas, Soto, Maitan, Stefanic
    • Outfield: Upton, Trout, Goodwin, Adell, Marsh, Hermosillo, Knowles, Deveaux, maybe Lund, Martinez
    • DH: Ohtani
      • This is the year in which our current crop of talent has to have established itself, otherwise they fall into out-of-options danger. 
      • Some dynamic arms add in to either the pen or rotation, too far out to project now - but Hernandez, Aquino, Pina, and Bradish all have a real shot at impacting the club.
      • This is ironically the first season Adell would need to be added by to be protected - Knowles and Deveaux could be big sparks by now, Martinez likely a safe 4th OF.
        • Either way, a lot of outfield talent hits the MLB club in Upton's final year...

 

Nicely done man.  This is why, IMO, we are well-positioned to take some risk on pending FAs like Cole, Wheeler, etc.  We have a pipeline of talent start to emerge, such that it's reasonable to expect that we'll be graduating good talent on a yearly basis now.  Some deadweight contracts (Cozart, Pujols) are set to expire soon and will be replaced by players earning the minimum for a few years.

It all depends on Arte.  If Arte can be convinced of this pipeline and believes in it, maybe he'll go above the LT level for a few years to contend now, as he watches the farm system churn out talent yearly.  Then, as contracts start to drop off (Cozart, Pujols, Upton), he can go back below the LT level.

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5 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Seems like he cares about the luxury tax also, since he hasn't come close to it in years. l hope that changes this off season...

Anyone here who has followed Fletch can tell you the opposite. From inside the organization, he was told to ignore the luxury tax. All Arte cares about is the payroll. 

He hasn’t come near the luxury tax because the luxury tax has steadily risen. The payroll has stayed relatively firm. Arte has a set amount from year to year he’s willing to spend based on how much the franchise brings in. Could he spend more? Sure. But the reason he won’t (again, per a source insight the front office to Fletcher) has nothing to do with the luxury tax. That’s a fan narrative that is divorced from the reality. 

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6 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

Anyone here who has followed Fletch can tell you the opposite. From inside the organization, he was told to ignore the luxury tax. All Arte cares about is the payroll. 

He hasn’t come near the luxury tax because the luxury tax has steadily risen. The payroll has stayed relatively firm. Arte has a set amount from year to year he’s willing to spend based on how much the franchise brings in. Could he spend more? Sure. But the reason he won’t (again, per a source insight the front office to Fletcher) has nothing to do with the luxury tax. That’s a fan narrative that is divorced from the reality. 

It'll be interesting to see what he does this offseason.  Fletcher has indicated that it seems Arte will spend a bit more this offseason (maybe because he has secured Trout, and with Trout in tow, wants to "win now"?).  I fully expect us to secure SP, but it'll be interesting to see who we finish with.  I'm sure we'll acquire at least 2.

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12 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

It'll be interesting to see what he does this offseason.  Fletcher has indicated that it seems Arte will spend a bit more this offseason (maybe because he has secured Trout, and with Trout in tow, wants to "win now"?).  I fully expect us to secure SP, but it'll be interesting to see who we finish with.  I'm sure we'll acquire at least 2.

There are certainly indications that that might be the case. I haven’t gotten the impression that on that point Fletcher knows more than we do. I think we’re all just looking at the situation and repenting firings and hirings, and connecting the dots.

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33 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

Anyone here who has followed Fletch can tell you the opposite. From inside the organization, he was told to ignore the luxury tax. All Arte cares about is the payroll. 

He hasn’t come near the luxury tax because the luxury tax has steadily risen. The payroll has stayed relatively firm. Arte has a set amount from year to year he’s willing to spend based on how much the franchise brings in. Could he spend more? Sure. But the reason he won’t (again, per a source insight the front office to Fletcher) has nothing to do with the luxury tax. That’s a fan narrative that is divorced from the reality. 

He needs to care more about results, than the payroll at this point...

He has said over and over again, he would go over the tax threshold for the right player but has never come close to doing it.

Edited by Ace-Of-Diamonds

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5 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

He needs to care more about results, than the payroll at this point...

He has said over and over again, he would go over the tax threshold for the right player but has never come close to doing it.

That was years ago when the payroll and luxury tax were close. That no longer applies (at least to the tax). 

That he would be willing to spend at the right time is the chief point. 

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5 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

That was years ago when the payroll and luxury tax were close. That no longer applies (at least to the tax). 

That he would be willing to spend at the right time is the chief point. 

Let's hope this is the right time.  Rosenthal, in the Athletic, indicated that we appear to be the overwhelming favorites to sign Cole.  Only time will tell.

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24 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

That was years ago when the payroll and luxury tax were close. That no longer applies (at least to the tax). 

That he would be willing to spend at the right time is the chief point. 

blah, blah, blah... He is wasting the career of the greatest player we ever see play this game. He needs to spend big or sell the team. He got himself into this mess with enormous contracts on players past their prime. He needs to spend big on players in their prime now.

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1 hour ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

blah, blah, blah... He is wasting the career of the greatest player we ever see play this game. He needs to spend big or sell the team. He got himself into this mess with enormous contracts on players past their prime. He needs to spend big on players in their prime now.

I’ll bite. Why does he need to spend big or sell the team? He has already spent big. Spending big doesn’t guarantee you anything. It’s about building a strong foundation and having young talented players. It’s not like he hasn’t spent. He has a top 10 payroll right now. He signed Trout the the biggest contract in sports history. He has definitely spent. But even if he keeps payroll around the same as it’s been the last couple years, it doesn’t make him cheap. 

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46 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I’ll bite. Why does he need to spend big or sell the team? He has already spent big. Spending big doesn’t guarantee you anything. It’s about building a strong foundation and having young talented players. It’s not like he hasn’t spent. He has a top 10 payroll right now. He signed Trout the the biggest contract in sports history. He has definitely spent. But even if he keeps payroll around the same as it’s been the last couple years, it doesn’t make him cheap. 

Because he spent on the wrong players in the past, and now the Angels are a bottom third team, that has the second worst pitching rotation and even the best player on the planet can't make this team competitive unless Arte spends big this off season. The Angels are the laughing stock of baseball because Trout can't get to the playoffs.

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1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

I’ll bite. Why does he need to spend big or sell the team? He has already spent big. Spending big doesn’t guarantee you anything. It’s about building a strong foundation and having young talented players. It’s not like he hasn’t spent. He has a top 10 payroll right now. He signed Trout the the biggest contract in sports history. He has definitely spent. But even if he keeps payroll around the same as it’s been the last couple years, it doesn’t make him cheap. 

 

32 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Because he spent on the wrong players in the past, and now the Angels are a bottom third team, that has the second worst pitching rotation and even the best player on the planet can't make this team competitive unless Arte spends big this off season. The Angels are the laughing stock of baseball because Trout can't get to the playoffs.

I think you guys are both right.  Spending three or four years ago would have propagated the problem because there were no additional resources as an alternate.  The foundation wasn't set.  Hell, they hadn't even poured it yet.  Now we're looking at 2-3 players have a massive impact.  The Angels lost 90 games in 2019 but the second the season ends they go back to projecting as better than that and they can get a lot better very quickly and the important part is that they are in a position to keep getting better and better with the right additions but also with some short term patience.  

Anchor that rotation with a couple guys.  Hang on to Marsh and Adell.  Let the guys in A ball and below continue to develop.  Maybe add a decent catcher.   Get better first and then worry about being great.  So yes, spend, but do it to help set up the next 4+ years.  Don't make moves where you limit your ability to win to any shorter than that.  

I see getting a guy like Cole as similar to when the cubs went out and got Lester before they went on their run.  That probably went a little quicker than expected because of what they got from Arrieta but their foundation was solid.  So we might not win 97 games next year but around 90 would be nice and then leave yourself a little room to address needs appropriately the next year.  You don't want to do what the Phils did.  I don't have a problem with them locking up Harper but the Realmuto type move who only had 2 years of control when they got him was premature.  They gave up their top pitching prospect who is essentially ready to hit the bigs, and now they need pitching.  

So make some FA additions but make sure they're gonna work.  If it truly does then reserve those additional moves like that big trade for the deadline or even 2021 and make sure they're for players under control for longer than 2 years.  

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This is Arte's offseason.  Nobody will have a bigger impact on what this team does than the man on the yacht.    If the Angels have to expend organizational currency to acquire pitching they will be setting themselves back.  If Papi Warpesos decides to take it in the shorts for a year or two -- he's back to where he was in 2004 with a team ready to graduate talent, a legit HOF calibre OFer and a rotation that can hold it's own.

People can talk about Eppler and Maddon, and Santa Claus, but this is Arte Moreno's offseason.

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Fan fiction from the Dodgers:

It’s time for the Dodgers to spend big on the biggest and best free agents – Dodgers Digest

http://dodgersdigest.com/2019/10/16/its-time-for-the-dodgers-to-spend-big-on-the-biggest-and-best-free-agents/

Hyun-Jin Ryu is coming off the best season of his career and Scott Boras has a plan to get him a a big payday. That might be $20 million a season for 3-4 years. That’s something they could easily do, but if they’re going to do that for the guy going into his age-33 season, then why not spend $10-15 million more annually for a younger, better pitcher in Cole? Yes, the term would be significantly longer than what Ryu is going to get, but that’s what it takes these days to sign the best of the best (see: Harper, Manny Machado, Eric Hosmer [lol], etc.). At minimum, Cole is getting a 6-year deal, ala Patrick Corbin‘s last winter.

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

Fan fiction from the Dodgers:

It’s time for the Dodgers to spend big on the biggest and best free agents – Dodgers Digest

http://dodgersdigest.com/2019/10/16/its-time-for-the-dodgers-to-spend-big-on-the-biggest-and-best-free-agents/

Hyun-Jin Ryu is coming off the best season of his career and Scott Boras has a plan to get him a a big payday. That might be $20 million a season for 3-4 years. That’s something they could easily do, but if they’re going to do that for the guy going into his age-33 season, then why not spend $10-15 million more annually for a younger, better pitcher in Cole? Yes, the term would be significantly longer than what Ryu is going to get, but that’s what it takes these days to sign the best of the best (see: Harper, Manny Machado, Eric Hosmer [lol], etc.). At minimum, Cole is getting a 6-year deal, ala Patrick Corbin‘s last winter.

Andrew Friedman is risk averse - I just can't picture him signing a SP to a 200mil+ deal.  I doubt the Dodgers hand out a big contract.  Instead, they're more likely to use their prospect surplus to acquire a more cost-controlled significant player, IMO.  Seems to be the way he does business.

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I think Cole is going to come down to the Angels, Yankees, Astros, and maybe one dark-horse team that tries something desperate in terms of money to woo an arm, like Minnesota. 

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4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I think Cole is going to come down to the Angels, Yankees, Astros, and maybe one dark-horse team that tries something desperate in terms of money to woo an arm, like Minnesota. 

All indications are that Cole wants to come back to the West Coast.  I'm sure if a non-west coast team blows him away, he'll follow the money.  That said, I think if we offer something in the ballpark as the other teams, he'll come here.

I'm almost positive the Astros won't re-sign him, as they can't do so while staying under the LT limit, and their owner has already said he intends to stay below.  Our biggest "threat," IMO, are actually the Padres, who are looking to jump start their contention window.  That said,  I think we'll end up with Cole.

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7 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Because he spent on the wrong players in the past, and now the Angels are a bottom third team, that has the second worst pitching rotation and even the best player on the planet can't make this team competitive unless Arte spends big this off season. The Angels are the laughing stock of baseball because Trout can't get to the playoffs.

I don’t know I don’t think the Angels are a laughing stock. But I get your frustration. But everyone makes mistakes via free agency. He isn’t the gm the gm is the one signing players with his money. So I still don’t get the he has to sell the team mentality. Who’s he selling it to and why does he have to sell? Any team that loses 90 games and their owner doesn’t spend a collective 500 million in one offseason must then sell the team? 

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25 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

Andrew Friedman is risk averse - I just can't picture him signing a SP to a 200mil+ deal.  I doubt the Dodgers hand out a big contract.  Instead, they're more likely to use their prospect surplus to acquire a more cost-controlled significant player, IMO.  Seems to be the way he does business.

I definitely think Dodgers and the Padres are in play

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38 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

All indications are that Cole wants to come back to the West Coast.  I'm sure if a non-west coast team blows him away, he'll follow the money.  That said, I think if we offer something in the ballpark as the other teams, he'll come here.

I'm almost positive the Astros won't re-sign him, as they can't do so while staying under the LT limit, and their owner has already said he intends to stay below.  Our biggest "threat," IMO, are actually the Padres, who are looking to jump start their contention window.  That said,  I think we'll end up with Cole.

I don't think I can count the Astros out of anything right now. I agree it's very unlikely but they have the farm, the money, and the creativity to make almost anything work if they really wanted to. 

If they were absolutely dead-set on keeping Cole, they could always free up some salary (if they had to, I'm not still not convinced they wouldn't push the LT for a year or two also) by dangling Springer, Correa, or to a lesser extent, Brantley, Reddick, or Gurriel, as they still have the offense and farm to replace some of their offense internally. 

In many ways, I'm rooting for them to win the WS because I think it will really help take them out of the mix. They'll have another ring, Cole will have his ring, it'll be much easier for both sides to go separate ways and try to continue momentum elsewhere. 

If Strasburg opts out, I imagine SD will be all over him. And I'm also not convinced SD could/should offer a $200m contract to a pitcher given their incredibly deep pitching depth on the farm. Between Hosmer, Machado, Myers, they already have some big contracts on the books, and could probably bank more on the Ryu/Bumgarner/Wood/Wheeler/Hamels/Odorizzi/Keuchel contingent to find good SP, especially in that ballpark, without having to break the bank.

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21 hours ago, totdprods said:

I agree - I'm hoping all of this 'last chance for Eppler' stuff is just rampant media speculation, fanbase overreaction, and maybe a little bit of front office/organizational bluster being blown out of proportion. 

He hasn't produced the results we'd like to see and there have been misses, but as a whole I still think he's done a phenomenal job, nor do I think we're any worse for wear than if he'd pursued a different route. 

I personally think the reality isnt that he "has to make the playoffs" or any such nonsense, given the fact that were still in the Astros division, BUT... the team MUST make a large leap forward instead of continuing to take steps back.  The plan needs to produce, and not just be feeding cheap players to Ana. 
The reality though is that for '20 thats going to depend on Arte as much as Eppler.  Hes going to have to open the checkbook in a big way for 20 to be any better than 19.  If he doesnt do that, its kinda silly to help Eppler accountable since most of the reason were hamstringed payroll wise were not his doing. 

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3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

This is Arte's offseason.  Nobody will have a bigger impact on what this team does than the man on the yacht.    If the Angels have to expend organizational currency to acquire pitching they will be setting themselves back.  If Papi Warpesos decides to take it in the shorts for a year or two -- he's back to where he was in 2004 with a team ready to graduate talent, a legit HOF calibre OFer and a rotation that can hold it's own.

People can talk about Eppler and Maddon, and Santa Claus, but this is Arte Moreno's offseason.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hello????  Look up.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

28 minutes ago, floplag said:


The reality though is that for '20 thats going to depend on Arte as much as Eppler.  Hes going to have to open the checkbook in a big way for 20 to be any better than 19.  If he doesnt do that, its kinda silly to help Eppler accountable since most of the reason were hamstringed payroll wise were not his doing. 

 

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39 minutes ago, floplag said:

I personally think the reality isnt that he "has to make the playoffs" or any such nonsense, given the fact that were still in the Astros division, BUT... the team MUST make a large leap forward instead of continuing to take steps back.  The plan needs to produce, and not just be feeding cheap players to Ana. 
The reality though is that for '20 thats going to depend on Arte as much as Eppler.  Hes going to have to open the checkbook in a big way for 20 to be any better than 19.  If he doesnt do that, its kinda silly to help Eppler accountable since most of the reason were hamstringed payroll wise were not his doing. 

The only contract that is on the books that is not from Epplers doing is Albert. I don't know what contract is really hamstringing us? 

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