Chuckster70

Could the Angels build a Washington Nationals type rotation this offseason?

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50 minutes ago, Second Base said:

No one compares to Strasburg quite like Strasburg.

Exactly.

58 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

I think unless you have an unlimited budget or a couple of pre-arb studs in the lineup then more than 2 ace level pitchers is overkill. Money better spent on bats 

Like Adell and Ohtani? Fletcher, Rengifo, and Thaiss could all wind up cheap  everyday above-average contributors next year too.

Agree that it would be overkill and incredibly unlikely, like, beyond the pale, but, squinting I don’t think it’s a 0% chance.  A lot of money drops off the next three offseasons. If Arte had tremendous faith in Billy’s ability to continue building the farm - something I think even his biggest critics can agree he’s done very well - I don’t think it’s totally impossible that he drops major coin, signs the top two arms, and expects Billy to do the rest via internal/frugal means.

I mean, let’s fantasize for a moment....Cole, Strasburg, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, with a lineup of Fletcher, Trout, Ohtani, Upton, Pujols, La Stella, Simmons, Adell/Goodwin, Stassi/Smith is a pretty damn good team as is, even with a couple offensive question marks. Insane money, but you could say that the team is more or less set. Those two arms are better than almost any three we could get via FA.

The Angels almost have to bank on the expectation that Adell, Marsh, Rengifo, Fletcher, one of Thaiss, Ward, Walsh, and at least two of Canning, Sandoval, Suarez, Barria all become legit, above-average major leaguers within the next two years. They have to bat almost 1.000 on their AA-AAA-MLB young players achieving at least average MLB everyday player ceilings, and quickly, in order to really go all out spending this winter - be it Cole/Strasburg, Cole and Strasburg, or Cole, Odorizzi, Miley, etc. etc. It'll be the only way to afford it and keep a somewhat flexible payroll as Calhoun, Simmons, Cozart, Pujols, and Upton drop off.

Edited by totdprods

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14 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

It would cost a lot, even backloaded (I don't see any way it's much less than 50m for all three), but if Arte adds a bit to payroll and they use some creativity in backloading stuff, we may be able to make it work.

back-loading only helps the actual payroll and does nothing to reduce the AAV, but could help Arte balance the books until Albert retires after the 2021 season.

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13 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

Then they have no chance IMO. I doubt they pay Maddon 15 million to roll out guys like Cahill, Harvey types on the mound in 2020 and beyond. 

They need one of Strasburg or Cole, in addition to one of the secondary guys I mentioned in Ryu, Odorizzi or Wheeler. 

I think what we saw from Ohtani in his rookie campaign suggests he can be every bit as good as Strasburg was this season. You add in a #3 guy like Wheeler, Ryu or Odorrizi and you're looking pretty damn good. Canning and Heaney can be a solid 4&5 guy in our rotation. 

Here's hoping Ohtani has no setbacks in his recovery and hasn't lost any velocity. If his return to the mound proves to every bit good as it was prior to the injury, he should good to go as a #2 or even a #1.

Cole seems to admire Ohtani, from an article l read, he would love to follow his career, sign an Angels contract would give him a first hand view.

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The chase has begun.  When the Royals won the WS, having a lock down bullpen was all the rage.  Every year and every time a team has success, everyone wants to replicate what they're doing.  When the Astros won - tanking was the thing fans wanted their teams to emulate because they wanted to draft their own talent.  The Nationals have made great starting pitching cool again. 

The idea that by adding Gerrit Cole and another proven arm, suddenly puts the Angels' rotation on par with the Nats is kind of funny to me. Cole definitely would be a huge upgrade, but we really have no idea what Ohtani is going to give the Angels.  Scherzer, Strasburg and Corbin could all be #1's on most teams.  Anibal Sanchez is no slouch; in fact, he was better than any Angel pitcher this past season.  Canning and Heaney still have question marks.  A lot of things would have to go amazingly right for the Angels' staff to be on the same level as the Nats'.  I love the optimism, but let's be realistic.  It's highly unlikely the Angels' put together a staff that's on par with the 2019 Nats.  AND that's okay.  Even though starting pitching is paramount - it's not the only important thing. The Angels can have success with their own plan and don't necessarily have to replicate someone else's.

Had Dave Roberts not put Kershaw in game 5 - we might not even be having this conversation. 

All I'm saying is that there are lots of ways for a team to find success.  The Angels need to find their own way and then the fan bases of other teams can say... "Let's do that!"

BTW...I won't be surprised if Strasburg stays in DC - even if he opts out. 

Edited by True Grich

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10 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

Could the Angels build a Washington Nationals type rotation this offseason?

Its unfortunate to see that the drug use infecting the baseball team has filtered down to its message boards.

You do know that signing Gerrit Cole and one of the secondary pitchers I mentioned would put them in the discussion, @yk9001.

It's not that hard to understand. 

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15 hours ago, Jay said:

I see where you are coming from but to say Ohtani is comparable to Strasburg is premature at best.

Strasburg pitched 209 innings with 3.32 ERA and 1.038 WHIP.

Both have had TJS, both are male. Seems like a spot on comparison to me.

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Cole is an absolute must. The Angels have lacked a true number 1 for a while now. I think secondly they need someone like Thor as a 1B. I would really prefer to count on Ohtani as a number 3-4 even though he has number 1 stuff. I think its really important for Canning to take a leap forward.

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The Anibal Sanchez love in this thread is weird. Dude had an ERA near 6.00 over three years and 415 innings.

Obviously, he’s rebounded, but it goes to show how the Matt Harvey-types of last year aren’t always terrible moves. 

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2 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

You do know that signing Gerrit Cole and one of the secondary pitchers I mentioned would put them in the discussion, @yk9001.

It's not that hard to understand. 

I read Mad Magazine when I was a kid.  They had a page on how to build a balsa wood ship in a bottle.  They had a picture of a beautiful balsa wood ship in a bottle.

The instructions: "Take your carving knife and carve everything that doesn't look like the ship in the accompanying picture."

 

What you are making sound easy is not that easy!  Hell, the Nationals can bring back every starter next year, and there is no guarantee at all that they would have this kind of rotation success again.  Hell, the Angels brought back their entire team in 2003, and they couldn't re-create their 2002 success.  Ohtani has been here two years, and he is 0-2 on staying healthy for an entire season.

I guess I have low expectations, based on watching this team this decade.  I'd settle for "pitchers not shitting the bed every night".

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15 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

3 pieces: 

Cole

Another solid pitcher (tougher pick; hard to know who the best option will be and whether that will be free agency or a trade).

Grandal.

Make those three moves, and this team is in good position going into 2020.

100% this.  Sign Cole, Ryu or Wheeler, Grandal.  This would add somewhere around 12-15 WAR in value to our team next year, which should be enough to make us significant WC contenders.

A rotation of Cole, Ryu/Wheeler, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Sandoval/Barria/Suarez/etc should be strong enough.  While signing a 3rd SP would be great, we do desperately need a legitimate catcher, and Grandal is one of the best.  By mid-season, Adell should be firmly entrenched in the lineup, too.

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1 minute ago, yk9001 said:

I read Mad Magazine when I was a kid.  They had a page on how to build a balsa wood ship in a bottle.  They had a picture of a beautiful balsa wood ship in a bottle.

The instructions: "Take your carving knife and carve everything that doesn't look like the ship in the accompanying picture."

 

What you are making sound easy is not that easy!  Hell, the Nationals can bring back every starter next year, and there is no guarantee at all that they would have this kind of rotation success again.  Hell, the Angels brought back their entire team in 2003, and they couldn't re-create their 2002 success.  Ohtani has been here two years, and he is 0-2 on staying healthy for an entire season.

I guess I have low expectations, based on watching this team this decade.  I'd settle for "pitchers not shitting the bed every night".

@yk9001 you know me man, I'm an optimistic person. While I share your frustrations, I'm like a kid waiting on Christmas every offseason and spring training. Hope springs eternal man.

I see no reason to dwell on the failures of the past. It's OK to be objective and understand what needs fixing, but pessimism just sucks the life out of me man so I try to stay clear of that type of mind set or people who are constantly negative.

When the Angels signed Ohtani, everyone said they were getting a #1 type frontline pitcher. Scouts, baseball experts, etc. What he showed in his rookie year was nothing short of that, outside of a few bouts with blisters and that rookie learning curve. But damn dude, that fastball, slider, splitter combo... He has a chance to be something special. Landing a couple of top tier arms will take pressure off him and I believe with a new pitching coach that isn't speaking some foreign language from outer space, Canning and Heaney can be really good at the back end of the rotation facing off against other teams 4th and 5th starters. 

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2 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I don't read the hot stove stuff.  Were we interested in Corbin a year ago?

Yes we were, but he was adamant to play for a team next to home back east. Much like Charlie Morton who would have been a GREAT pick (he was actually better than Corbin) wanted to play for the Rays because his home is in St. Pete. 

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20 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

@yk9001 you know me man, I'm an optimistic person. While I share your frustrations, I'm like a kid waiting on Christmas every offseason and spring training. Hope springs eternal man.

I see no reason to dwell on the failures of the past. It's OK to be objective and understand what needs fixing, but pessimism just sucks the life out of me man so I try to stay clear of that type of mind set or people who are constantly negative.

When the Angels signed Ohtani, everyone said they were getting a #1 type frontline pitcher. Scouts, baseball experts, etc. What he showed in his rookie year was nothing short of that, outside of a few bouts with blisters and that rookie learning curve. But damn dude, that fastball, slider, splitter combo... He has a chance to be something special. Landing a couple of top tier arms will take pressure off him and I believe with a new pitching coach that isn't speaking some foreign language from outer space, Canning and Heaney can be really good at the back end of the rotation facing off against other teams 4th and 5th starters. 

I love Ohtani.  I am in my 50s, and went out and got an Ohtani t-shirt last year.  I never do that stuff.

Crap, I even forgot about the damn blisters.

You call it optimism, and god bless you.  I'm more of a 'walk before you run' kind of guy.  I'd like to see some sort of sustained success before I think we can have a Nationals-postseason kind of staff.  

Plus, I have an almost PTSD-type fear of any frontline player we signing coming in and actually being GOOD.  It is a long time since Vlad-Bartolo.  I've seen too many high priced guys come in here and lay and egg the past decade and a half.

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34 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

100% this.  Sign Cole, Ryu or Wheeler, Grandal.  This would add somewhere around 12-15 WAR in value to our team next year, which should be enough to make us significant WC contenders.

A rotation of Cole, Ryu/Wheeler, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Sandoval/Barria/Suarez/etc should be strong enough.  While signing a 3rd SP would be great, we do desperately need a legitimate catcher, and Grandal is one of the best.  By mid-season, Adell should be firmly entrenched in the lineup, too.

Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to having an all out competition in ST for the RF gig between Goodwin, Marsh, Adell and Hermosillo. That would be fun! 

Maddon has been great with the kids and not afraid to give them a shot at the big league level. While I think Sosh was a great manager, this is one of a few areas that I love Maddon over Sosh. Eric Byrnes on the MLB Network yesterday called Maddon the Millennial Whisperer.  

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I'd be ecstatic if the Angels come away with a #2 and #3 type pitchers this off season either through FA or trade.  If they end up getting Cole then that's even better but I don't think he'll have any shortage of legitimate suitors some of which are better positioned to compete than the Angels.  The Nationals starters ERA was second best in the majors and 2.11 lower than the Angels who had the second wort starters ERA.  I'm guessing throughout the years it hasn't been common for teams to make that big of a turn around from one year to the next.  Not impossible especially with FA but not easily done as it requires getting the right players and some luck as far as health goes.  I'm optimistic because it really can't get much worse as far as SP goes but I want to remain realistic at the same time.

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12 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to having an all out competition in ST for the RF gig between Goodwin, Marsh, Adell and Hermosillo. That would be fun! 

Maddon has been great with the kids and not afraid to give them a shot at the big league level. While I think Sosh was a great manager, this is one of a few areas that I love Maddon over Sosh. Eric Byrnes on the MLB Network yesterday called Maddon the Millennial Whisperer.  

Yessir!  Maddon will really help us in terms of bringing the kids along, IMO.

All of this said, I really hope Arte sees the team for what it is and realizes that if he truly wants to compete, he likely has to bite the bullet for the next 2 years or so and go above the luxury tax limit.  Billy is building the farm, and while there's some very good talent in the pipeline, a lot of it is in the lower minors (with the exception of Adell, Marsh, and a few intriguing arms).  To start winning next year, that means he will need to spend $$$ to fill SP/C, then let the farm develop and graduate the lower level arms to help supplement the rotation in about 2 years worth of time.

Again, though, I think our path to contention is clear, but it does require him to probably spend ~50-60mil of payroll money next year, while simultaneously going above the LT limit.

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11 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

Yessir!  Maddon will really help us in terms of bringing the kids along, IMO.

All of this said, I really hope Arte sees the team for what it is and realizes that if he truly wants to compete, he likely has to bite the bullet for the next 2 years or so and go above the luxury tax limit.  Billy is building the farm, and while there's some very good talent in the pipeline, a lot of it is in the lower minors (with the exception of Adell, Marsh, and a few intriguing arms).  To start winning next year, that means he will need to spend $$$ to fill SP/C, then let the farm develop and graduate the lower level arms to help supplement the rotation in about 2 years worth of time.

Again, though, I think our path to contention is clear, but it does require him to probably spend ~50-60mil of payroll money next year, while simultaneously going above the LT limit.

Yeah, what's good is that our outfield (Upton, Trout, Goodwin, Marsh, Adell, Hermosillo, Ward and later on Adams) and infield (Thaiss, Walsh, Rengifo, Fletcher, Simmons, La Stella, Jones and Rojas) are setup for the long run, so let's spend some money on the two positions of need in SP and C position.

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4 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Yeah, what's good is that our outfield (Upton, Trout, Goodwin, Marsh, Adell, Hermosillo, Ward and later on Adams) and infield (Thaiss, Walsh, Rengifo, Fletcher, Simmons, La Stella, Jones and Rojas) are setup for the long run, so let's spend some money on the two positions of need in SP and C position.

In a lot of ways, this is sort of what the Dodgers did earlier this decade.  The team was devastated by McCourt - no big league talent, no minor league talent.  The new ownership came in, heavily invested in the farm AND willingly took on mega contracts (the Adrian Gonzalez trade) to make them an instant contender.  They carried a payroll of like 300mil for a few years and gradually decreased it steadily as the farm talent started graduating in 3-6 years of time.

The Angels are in much better shape than that Dodger team was, but the only way for Arte to have a contender NEXT year is to spend $$$ immediately to strength the big league club.  Do NOT trade any of our prospects, let them continue developing, then in the next 1-3 years, graduate those prospects, who will help balance the budget of some of the large contracts we will be signing players to.

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1 minute ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Everyone keeps saying it'll be too expensive. We've got money to spend this year and it really won't be that hard to get at least a Cole and Wheeler. That should be the beginning of the list. 

It's more that 5/$85m is a lot for someone like Wheeler, not that the Angels couldn't afford it. I think if we were spending another $90m after Cole, I'd rather spread it around by way of two SPs, or a SP and relief/offensive help.

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3 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

In a lot of ways, this is sort of what the Dodgers did earlier this decade.  The team was devastated by McCourt - no big league talent, no minor league talent.  The new ownership came in, heavily invested in the farm AND willingly took on mega contracts (the Adrian Gonzalez trade) to make them an instant contender.  They carried a payroll of like 300mil for a few years and gradually decreased it steadily as the farm talent started graduating in 3-6 years of time.

The Angels are in much better shape than that Dodger team was, but the only way for Arte to have a contender NEXT year is to spend $$$ immediately to strength the big league club.  Do NOT trade any of our prospects, let them continue developing, then in the next 1-3 years, graduate those prospects, who will help balance the budget of some of the large contracts we will be signing players to.

^^^ this is what I'm hoping for. Time is now, bump the payroll way up for two years by way of some big pitching adds, hold onto prospects, and let Cozart, Pujols, Upton come off the books to ease things with kids stepping in.

Just not sure Arte will be willing to go there with money, or that Eppler will be able to hold onto the prospects. I worry it'll be something in-between...enough boost in payroll for some help, but still a need to trade.

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