The age of our rotation

[Claude]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

The 26th guy will be one of the club control guys. They could keep an extra catcher for portions of the season, a fifth OF, a seventh INF, or a 14th pitcher.

OF: Trout, Upton, Goodwin, Walsh/Hermosillio -- Adell by June 15th.

INF: Pujols, Fletcher, La Stella, Simmons, Thaiss, Rengifo

Catchers: Stassi, Smith

DH/SP: Ohtani

SP: Cole (FA), Bumgarner (FA), Heaney, Canning, Suarez / Sandoval

RP: Robles, Buttrey, Bedrosian, Meijia, Anderson, Cole, N. Ramirez, Pena

Well I understand what you’re putting together but we need better catching and I really don’t believe Arte is going to go “all in” kabillions on two Aces. We would be very fortunate to get one of them. I still think Arte is going to stay close to $170M

[Hubs]

3 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

Well I understand what you’re putting together but we need better catching and I really don’t believe Arte is going to go “all in” kabillions on two Aces. We would be very fortunate to get one of them. I still think Arte is going to stay close to $170M

The payroll has been higher than that in recent seasons. He's gonna have to break the bank if he wants to go back to the playoffs, because young pitching isn't gonna all suddenly get significantly better.

ANGELS PAYROLLS
Year	25-man Opening Day	40-man Year End (rank)
2019	$158,878,583	$ ( )
2018	$166,649,999	$176,748,648 (
2017	$166,375,833	$188,553,926 ( 7)
2016	$164,673,333	$185,760,439 ( 7)

[Angel Oracle]

Arte already removes some $45 million from payroll after this season (Harvey, Cahill, Allen, Bour, Lucroy, and Calhoun), and there won't be much in arb raises other than LaStella and even his will be reduced by missing 1/3 of the season. 

[Claude]

7 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Arte already removes some $45 million from payroll after this season (Harvey, Cahill, Allen, Bour, Lucroy, and Calhoun), and there won't be much in arb raises other than LaStella and even his will be reduced by missing 1/3 of the season. 

That’s correct AO. I don’t think he wants to spend more than that. As money comes off the books he reallocates it. When Hamilton was coming off he approved the Upton deal. He’s just flipping money year after year. 

[Docwaukee]

I think we'll see a commitment to a couple of contracts for more than 1-2 years this off season and they'll be back loaded for 2022 and beyond which will allow us to maintain some payroll flex for the near future.  The one thing you don't want to do is hamstring 2021 for future additions as needs always arise from year to year.  But I could see him pushing payroll to 190 m for 2020 if it seems there are true difference makers available.  I know a lot of people are down on the team considering how they've played the last month, but I still firmly believe that a couple of starters will make a huge difference for next year and even give us a chance to win the division.  That's why you spend.  It's the best core we've had at the major league level in 4+ years.  Not saying it's an absolute that we'll win 90+ games next year but our biggest obstacle right now is a lot more manageable than the number of holes we had to plug last year.  

[Claude]

21 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I think we'll see a commitment to a couple of contracts for more than 1-2 years this off season and they'll be back loaded for 2022 and beyond which will allow us to maintain some payroll flex for the near future.  The one thing you don't want to do is hamstring 2021 for future additions as needs always arise from year to year.  But I could see him pushing payroll to 190 m for 2020 if it seems there are true difference makers available.  I know a lot of people are down on the team considering how they've played the last month, but I still firmly believe that a couple of starters will make a huge difference for next year and even give us a chance to win the division.  That's why you spend.  It's the best core we've had at the major league level in 4+ years.  Not saying it's an absolute that we'll win 90+ games next year but our biggest obstacle right now is a lot more manageable than the number of holes we had to plug last year.  

Asking for your honest opinion.

If you’re Arte and you’ve continually committed $160M+  year after year and are currently witnessing the A’s and Rays continue to compete with pretty much half of that. How is Eppler going to guarantee that spending $190M will let us catch the Astros or the Yankees. I’m sure Arte is going to be thinking about that.

Maybe this team overcommitted on too many bad deals that making new deals won’t really make this team championship quality. It takes 25 guys. 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Calzone 2

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

No. Trout’s not the problem. It’s the 15-18 other guys that are the problem. 

But how are we ever going to get to the Rays payroll with Trout making 30 a year?

[Claude]

5 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

But how are we ever going to get to the Rays payroll with Trout making 30 a year?

Well we don’t need to get to the Rays payroll but we certainly don’t need to spend more than what Arte spends now to compete. But I think he realizes that already.  

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

Asking for your honest opinion.

If you’re Arte and you’ve continually committed $160M+  year after year and are currently witnessing the A’s and Rays continue to compete with pretty much half of that. How is Eppler going to guarantee that spending $190M will let us catch the Astros or the Yankees. I’m sure Arte is going to be thinking about that.

Maybe this team overcommitted on too many bad deals that making new deals won’t really make this team championship quality. It takes 25 guys. 

 

Isn't one of the narratives here that Arte doesn't care about winning, that all he cares about is 3 million butts in the stadium? 

Maybe those people are right and Moreno realizes that winning hasn't helped those teams draw fans or generate revenue but star power and hype does....  I mean... he was a marketing guy right?  Marketing is all about promotion and sales right?  Those teams have a putrid track record in those areas...  but holy shit the Angels don't.  Maybe he thinks the occasional big name splurge scores points with casual fans.... Maybe he's looked at how empty the stadium looks and thinks it's time to spend money to make money.....     Again...   

Or..... Maybe he even knows that both the Yankees and Astros are better than the Angels, are both spending more on payroll than the Angels and both  have more star power than the Angels....  Maybe he believes the team has put itself in position to actually compete and has the depth but lacks the top end talent to challenge those guys.... maybe he understands that while there is no guarantee that spending will result in the playoffs not spending again guarantees they won't....   3 million fans won't stay happy forever, will they???

This narrative twisting game is fun....  I see why you enjoy it so much.

[Claude]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Isn't one of the narratives here that Arte doesn't care about winning, that all he cares about is 3 million butts in the stadium? 

Maybe those people are right and Moreno realizes that winning hasn't helped those teams draw fans or generate revenue but star power and hype does....  I mean... he was a marketing guy right?  Marketing is all about promotion and sales right?  Those teams have a putrid track record in those areas...  but holy shit the Angels don't.  Maybe he thinks the occasional big name splurge scores points with casual fans.... Maybe he's looked at how empty the stadium looks and thinks it's time to spend money to make money.....     Again...   

Or..... Maybe he even knows that both the Yankees and Astros are better than the Angels, are both spending more on payroll than the Angels and both  have more star power than the Angels....  Maybe he believes the team has put itself in position to actually compete and has the depth but lacks the top end talent to challenge those guys.... maybe he understands that while there is no guarantee that spending will result in the playoffs not spending again guarantees they won't....   3 million fans won't stay happy forever, will they???

This narrative twisting game is fun....  I see why you enjoy it so much.

We are in 4th place with your year after year countless paragraphs about what they should do. You think Arte is going to pony up $190M? I don’t.

[Docwaukee]

5 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

Asking for your honest opinion.

If you’re Arte and you’ve continually committed $160M+  year after year and are currently witnessing the A’s and Rays continue to compete with pretty much half of that. How is Eppler going to guarantee that spending $190M will let us catch the Astros or the Yankees. I’m sure Arte is going to be thinking about that.

Maybe this team overcommitted on too many bad deals that making new deals won’t really make this team championship quality. It takes 25 guys. 

 

My honest opinion is that I wouldn't have done it last year, the year before, or the year before that.  So I think he was right to take a hard line on the budget.  I see more of an opportunity to make the team better than it's been for a long time in 2020.  Maybe that's an opinion you don't share.  Or one that he doesn't share as well and if he doesn't then he's not going to 190m.  

The only correlate to the A's and Rays is the importance of internal player development where most of your talent comes via the draft and intl players.  Otherwise, it's not relevant.  

There are no guarantees.  If Arte doesn't trust Eppler to make 190m worth it then he should fire him and find someone else who he does trust.  And if Arte does trust Billy then he's gonna rely on him to indicate whether spending 190m will make a difference.  

Maybe there's too much dead weight on the roster but most large payroll teams have dead weight and that doesn't need to be a complete deterrent or restriction.  We've seen that there are ways to overcome that.  Again, if Arte is reluctant to commit because of his prior experience then he doesn't trust his GM and should find someone new.  

Arte has been convinced to spend even after the Pujols and Hamilton deals.  If he stops now because of this years poor showing by Eppler then again, find someone else to do a better job but ultimately that shouldn't be the reason and if it is, this team has other problems to deal with.  

I will say this, if the Angels can't get Cole then maybe what they do bring in instead isn't enough to justify taking payroll up to a figure like 190 m just to add a couple mediocre players.  And that goes along with what Arte has said in the past that he'll elevate payroll for the right player.  You don't do it for Bumgarner and Odorizzi.  

I personally think they're at a point where that decision comes into play and I hope they have the opportunity to make it this off season.  

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

My honest opinion is that I wouldn't have done it last year, the year before, or the year before that.  So I think he was right to take a hard line on the budget.  I see more of an opportunity to make the team better than it's been for a long time in 2020.  Maybe that's an opinion you don't share.  Or one that he doesn't share as well and if he doesn't then he's not going to 190m.  

The only correlate to the A's and Rays is the importance of internal player development where most of your talent comes via the draft and intl players.  Otherwise, it's not relevant.  

There are no guarantees.  If Arte doesn't trust Eppler to make 190m worth it then he should fire him and find someone else who he does trust.  And if Arte does trust Billy then he's gonna rely on him to indicate whether spending 190m will make a difference.  

Maybe there's too much dead weight on the roster but most large payroll teams have dead weight and that doesn't need to be a complete deterrent or restriction.  We've seen that there are ways to overcome that.  Again, if Arte is reluctant to commit because of his prior experience then he doesn't trust his GM and should find someone new.  

Arte has been convinced to spend even after the Pujols and Hamilton deals.  If he stops now because of this years poor showing by Eppler then again, find someone else to do a better job but ultimately that shouldn't be the reason and if it is, this team has other problems to deal with.  

I will say this, if the Angels can't get Cole then maybe what they do bring in instead isn't enough to justify taking payroll up to a figure like 190 m just to add a couple mediocre players.  And that goes along with what Arte has said in the past that he'll elevate payroll for the right player.  You don't do it for Bumgarner and Odorizzi.  

I personally think they're at a point where that decision comes into play and I hope they have the opportunity to make it this off season.  

Careful, that is a lot of paragraphs, one might even say countless paragraphs.  

[Docwaukee]

20 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The truth is it doesn't matter what Arte spends next season, this team is not 1 or 2 FA's away from competing. Signing Cole to pitch a few innings every 5th game will not give the Angels the 15-20 extra wins they need next season. 

I wouldn't expect you to write anything different and in years past I would agree with you.  But the impact of a guy like Cole doesn't have to be for just 2020 when you sign him for 6 years and while I'll never convince you that the Angels are going to be good again at some point, they will at some point and likely sooner than you think.  

So at least for the first time in awhile, the argument can be made that 1-2 free agent starters WILL make a huge difference.  Personally, I think it will so I'd like to see it happen, and even if it doesn't for 2020, I think it at least makes sense to bring in a guy like Cole for 2021, 22, 23, and 24.  

That's one way to get better for sure.  Sign a top notch free agents and build around him along with the rest of your core.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The problem is the "window to compete" keeps getting pushed back. 2020 was the magic year but now people are starting to say 2021 is when they're really supposed to win, 2020 is just a "set up" year. This has been going on for years now. What they need is a rebuild, not patching up holes with expensive FA's entering their decline. That hasn't worked for 10 years.

 

Unless you have an incredibly narrow definition of what a rebuild is then you’d see this as a rebuild.  If your version of a rebuild is to trade everyone, well that was never going to be the case because we have Trout.  Bottom line is they have had very little assets to trade.  They’ve signed no one to long term deals since Eppler has been here, except Upton who will contribute as this team matures.  They’ve spent every available dollar in the draft and internationally.  They signed Ohanti, possibly the most sought after international player ever.  When the Braves had their issue they signed multiple prospects they lost.  They haven’t signed a single free agent that would cost a draft pick.  They have traded no actual prospects of value for short term talent.  The only components of this that isn’t a rebuild is they didn’t trade Trout and Simmons and they didn’t try to lose.  

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The problem is the "window to compete" keeps getting pushed back. 2020 was the magic year but now people are starting to say 2021 is when they're really supposed to win, 2020 is just a "set up" year. This has been going on for years now. What they need is a rebuild, not patching up holes with expensive FA's entering their decline. That hasn't worked for 10 years.

 

your negative outlook has resulted in you remembering only what you want to remember.  Most here have been saying that we could compete in 2020 and it's arguable that we could but 2021 is more likely.  

Anyone who thought our true competitive window opened after acquiring what they did this last off season while trying to patch a shit ton of holes would have been crazy.  Was there an outside chance that we'd vie for the 2nd wild card?  sure.  But while most are bummed that it didn't happen, most are also not surprised.  

I think the window could open next year and I'd like to see Eppler approach the off season that way.  

You'd have had this team go into a rebuild after 2001 and I'm sure you spent the better part of 2004-09 complaining about how they didn't get to the world series.  

Go ahead and piss any sort of positivity if it makes you feel better.

[Inside Pitch]

58 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

We are in 4th place with your year after year countless paragraphs about what they should do. You think Arte is going to pony up $190M? I don’t.

I actually didn't say anything about that they should do..  I did however respond to your direct question -- did you not want a responses?   Did my turning the tables on you upset you?  

I always get a kick out of your whiny little bitching about people responding to your posts in detail -- you realize most of the time we do that to avoid you pulling a Clod and lying about what we have actually said, right?.

Anyway -- if you could kindly point out how all your  BS and trolling has helped the team escape fourth place I promise to cut my responses down to the bare minimum.   

In the meantime, I really like you and you're a really nice guy IRL

Kisses!

 

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Not true. But it doesn't matter.

There is nothing to feel optimistic about. This team has no future as it stands right now. You can sign Cole this year but if by your own calculation 2020 is most likely going to be a bust what's the point? When the window opens Cole will be 30 something years old and declining. It just doesn't make any sense. 

This is a serious question, if you believe this, then why do you waste your time?  Why do you even bother?  If my hobby made me feel as negative as you feel about the Angels, I would do something different.  I don’t understand this mindset.  

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

I'm able to separate the Angels from real life. If you could do the same you wouldn't get so pissed off on here every day. 

I’m not pissed off on here ever.  I can separate these things.  

[Stradling]

Also separation from real life means nothing when I asked you why you bother if you see nothing positive about the team.  I hate the Red Sox, I don’t see any real redeeming quality in that team.  I wouldn’t waste my time with them regardless of whether or not I could separate them from my real life.  

[Claude]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Also separation from real life means nothing when I asked you why you bother if you see nothing positive about the team.  I hate the Red Sox, I don’t see any real redeeming quality in that team.  I wouldn’t waste my time with them regardless of whether or not I could separate them from my real life.  

But seriously there are some very good human beings that play or work for the Red Sox. How can you possibly use the word hate when describing a baseball team that plays 3000 miles away. What did the Red Sox organization do to you or the Stradling family that would cause you to hate. That’s so freakin weird. What level of importance do the Red Sox have in your life to hate them. 

[Stradling]

Sports hate.

[Docwaukee]

5 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

My quality of life does not decrease when my baseball/basketball/football/hockey team of choice isn't good. I guess that's where we aren't seeing eye to eye. 

ours decreases when you're here.

[Claude]

13 hours ago, Stradling said:

Sports hate.

It’s just really super dumb to hate a team because they’re not your favorite. Did you not see the love the Angels organization gave Big Papi? These guys are all friends off the field. Look at the hugs and high fives during All Star weekend. 

Can you please elaborate on why you HATE the Red Sox? They’re a great iconic organization. Yaz, Williams, Rice just to name a few.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Calzone 2

[Stradling]

Almost as dumb as hating your favorite team.  

[Hubs]

16 hours ago, Dochalo said:

your negative outlook has resulted in you remembering only what you want to remember.  Most here have been saying that we could compete in 2020 and it's arguable that we could but 2021 is more likely.  

Anyone who thought our true competitive window opened after acquiring what they did this last off season while trying to patch a shit ton of holes would have been crazy.  Was there an outside chance that we'd vie for the 2nd wild card?  sure.  But while most are bummed that it didn't happen, most are also not surprised.  

I think the window could open next year and I'd like to see Eppler approach the off season that way.  

You'd have had this team go into a rebuild after 2001 and I'm sure you spent the better part of 2004-09 complaining about how they didn't get to the world series.  

Go ahead and piss any sort of positivity if it makes you feel better.

I thought they could've competed for a wild card because I saw this offensive surge happening. They're gonna top 800 runs scored likely, which I figured even with a bad pitching year like they had in 2018, they could compete for both wild cards, and if Houston losing Keuchel and teh other guys they lost, they could compete for the division on the outside.

Last year they gave up 722 runs, and scored 721. This year they're going to score over 800 but also allow over 800. I hoped Cahill and Harvey could give us 50 starts in the 4.2-4.5  ERA range. I hoped that Allen could return to 2017 form. Instead all three have been objectively terrible, and they lost their best starter to a tragic in season death, so this season's pitching has been 100-200 runs worse than what I hoped for.

Signing two good starters in the offseason to go with two returning 2018 starters in Heaney and Ohtani, and two returning 2019 starters in Canning, Sandoval, Suarez, and Barria is a recipe for success.

I'd like Bumgarner and Cole, if only because I think Bumgarner commands less years, and Cole is the best starter available. I'd also consider Cole and Keuchel.

If they can give one guy 5 or 6 years, in Cole, and the other guy 3-4 years the rotation lines up for the next 4 years like this:

2020: Cole (age 29 season), Ohtani (age 25 season), Bumgarner (age 30 season), Heaney (age 29 season), Canning (Age 24 season), Suarez (Age 22 Season)

2021: Cole (age 30 season), Ohtani (age 26 season), Bumgarner (age 31 season), Heaney (age 30 season), Canning (Age 25 season), Suarez (Age 23 Season)

2022: Cole (age 31 season), Ohtani (age 27 season), Bumgarner (age 32 season), Canning (Age 26 season), Suarez (Age 24 Season)

2023: Cole (age 32 season), Ohtani (age 28 season), Canning (Age 27 season), Suarez (Age 25 Season), Rookie/FA, Rookie/FA

Looks good to me.