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floplag

Honest question re: border crisis

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This came up in another discussion so i thought it post it here for S&Gs...
I dont want to get into the why or the drama over it.... but if you look only at the situation as a whole i think most people agree they should be given proper humanitarian aid.
The primary reason they are not getting that, assuming this to be true, is the severe overloading of the facilities.  Please dont play the evil Trump bullshit here, lets stay on point. 
So... given this, how do we fix it?  I see so many people bitching, but offering zero answers or solutions.  Lets talk about em.

I see 3 options... 
#1 turn them away, simply say we have no more room.  This of course would result in the same partisan rhetoric we see today but would also be wholly justified.
#2 invest is upgrading them, or building more.  While this is the most obvious answer, is it practical?  We have homeless issues veterans issues and a number of other things we arent investing in, that really should take a much higher priority, how do you justify doing this over those concerns? 
#3, let them loose into the country with the promise to show up for hearings.  Even if i believed this would work, we have to vet these people that are entering, and simply cutting them loose makes zero sense in almost any regard logically. 

So... am i missing anything?  What would you do.  
Again lets not make it partisan, lets not play the evil trump racist card... how would you fix it logically, without rhetoric, to provide proper humanitarian aid, while still upholding the law. 

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8 minutes ago, floplag said:

This came up in another discussion so i thought it post it here for S&Gs...
I dont want to get into the why or the drama over it.... but if you look only at the situation as a whole i think most people agree they should be given proper humanitarian aid.
The primary reason they are not getting that, assuming this to be true, is the severe overloading of the facilities.  Please dont play the evil Trump bullshit here, lets stay on point. 
So... given this, how do we fix it?  I see so many people bitching, but offering zero answers or solutions.  Lets talk about em.

I see 3 options... 
#1 turn them away, simply say we have no more room.  This of course would result in the same partisan rhetoric we see today but would also be wholly justified.
#2 invest is upgrading them, or building more.  While this is the most obvious answer, is it practical?  We have homeless issues veterans issues and a number of other things we arent investing in, that really should take a much higher priority, how do you justify doing this over those concerns? 
#3, let them loose into the country with the promise to show up for hearings.  Even if i believed this would work, we have to vet these people that are entering, and simply cutting them loose makes zero sense in almost any regard logically. 

So... am i missing anything?  What would you do.  
Again lets not make it partisan, lets not play the evil trump racist card... how would you fix it logically, without rhetoric, to provide proper humanitarian aid, while still upholding the law. 

The anti Trump left will be unable to do this. #1 is the best option as #2 would take a long time to build additional facilities. #3 would be stupid.

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Until Congress can come up with a legitimate comprehensive immigration plan that they actually follow through on (which I don't count on) option 1.  Option 2 doesn't do anything to address the actual issue and would probably encourage more people to come.  I can't support giving more shelter, food and medical care via more facilities when nothing has been done to stem the flow and more importantly we can't take care of our own.  Option 3 seems to be what's been happening for years and that's been unsuccessful because there hasn't been enough enforcement after the fact.  Some of the raids that are supposed to happen today are going after people who either were denied asylum or had their day in court and didn't show.  We've got mayors of major cities saying they aren't going to assist the feds and I can't wrap my head around why they're supporting non-citizens who broke the law.  What we've been doing isn't sustainable and if anything good comes from all of this I hope it's that we finally address illegal immigration.  In the mean time you have to give reasonable care to those that are in the centers.  Ultimately no country can take in millions of uneducated and unskilled workers, especially when they can't even take care of their own problems.  Both sides deserve equal blame and with how divided things are I don't expect anything other than more money to be thrown at the problem without addressing the issues.  Hopefully I'm wrong. 

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Humanitarian view points are solid.   For darned sure, families should NOT be split up from their children!  

Here's the issue that not many talk about though.    Isn't having illegal immigrants in the country a slap in the face of those immigrants who came here the right way and eventually became citizens?

Is it really that much more difficult of a process to become legal today, than it was in the previous century? 

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52 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Humanitarian view points are solid.   For darned sure, families should NOT be split up from their children!  

Here's the issue that not many talk about though.    Isn't having illegal immigrants in the country a slap in the face of those immigrants who came here the right way and eventually became citizens?

Is it really that much more difficult of a process to become legal today, than it was in the previous century? 

What if there is no way to verify that they are a real family?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-central-americans-children-open-a-path-to-the-us--and-bring-a-discount/2018/11/19/baf3b092-e6ce-11e8-bbdb-72fdbf9d4fed_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.82dd666fe71c

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Yeah see none of this is an absolute, thats the part that frustrates the hades out of me.  

Families shouldnt be broken up... well #1 we dont know they are families based on recent DNA results and #2 we dont seem to care when we do it to our own people who commit crimes or end up on the streets so  why is this different? 

AS for insulting those who did it right, of course it is, how could it not.  If you waiting in line to tickets to a game and some asshat snuck in the side gate and got your seat you would be pissed, wouldnt you? 

Is it more difficult, im sure 9/11 added some wrinkles but the problem isnt the process its the fact that its far overloaded.  

but none of that actually addresses the question, which is, what else is there?  What else can be done?

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I believe the current asylum policy goes back to the Refugee Act which was signed by Jimmy Carter in 1980.  Gang violence and economic reasons are not grounds for asylum and that's what the majority of the people in the caravans are claiming.  The system is broken when people stay after their claim is denied and even more so when elected officials in some cities seem to be in favor of warning or protecting these individuals.  I'm guessing Trump's current push which is supposed to go into effect tomorrow and will force asylum seekers to claim asylum in the first country they cross into will get shot down by some court shortly.  I'm hoping both sides can come together and get something done but again I don't count on it especially with how divisive everything is and even more so with Trump's latest tweets.  

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1 hour ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

I believe the current asylum policy goes back to the Refugee Act which was signed by Jimmy Carter in 1980.  Gang violence and economic reasons are not grounds for asylum and that's what the majority of the people in the caravans are claiming.  The system is broken when people stay after their claim is denied and even more so when elected officials in some cities seem to be in favor of warning or protecting these individuals.  I'm guessing Trump's current push which is supposed to go into effect tomorrow and will force asylum seekers to claim asylum in the first country they cross into will get shot down by some court shortly.  I'm hoping both sides can come together and get something done but again I don't count on it especially with how divisive everything is and even more so with Trump's latest tweets.  

This would be a good start. Just like our foreign policy, we are not the answer to all of the world's problems. This includes Central America as well as the Middle East. 

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I’d like to see the border closed and specific entry points opened up like we did with Ellis Island. Apply for entry/asylum/work permit there, and no more sneaking across the border. Speed up the vetting process and have judges on the premises to be used as needed. Becoming a citizen should be sped up to take no longer than 2-3 years.

If they’re going to keep the detention centers open, make sure living conditions in them are as humane as necessary, even going the extra mile where possible  - medical care, schooling for kids, English language immersion classes for adults, things like that.

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26 minutes ago, Tank said:

I’d like to see the border closed and specific entry points opened up like we did with Ellis Island. Apply for entry/asylum/work permit there, and no more sneaking across the border. Speed up the vetting process and have judges on the premises to be used as needed. Becoming a citizen should be sped up to take no longer than 2-3 years.

If they’re going to keep the detention centers open, make sure living conditions in them are as humane as necessary, even going the extra mile where possible  - medical care, schooling for kids, English language immersion classes for adults, things like that.

Do you think they should build more? Also Catalina can be the new Ellis :) 

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I don’t think you need to give them four star accommodations but if you’re going to separate the kids from the adults then at least treat them like they’re kids and not puppies at the pound. 

And the longer term solution has to be to reduce the incentive to make the journey. How big does the expected payoff have to be to walk across Mexico for a shot at it? Surely there’s some combination of lessening opportunities here and making home more livable that can be found  

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If we're honest with ourselves, we know what's bringing all of these "refugees" north - they know they can make more money in the US, often to send home to their families.  And they know if they claim asylum, they'll eventually be released into the country, legally - with no need to duck ICE all the time, at least until they miss their hearings.  (THey know this because Americans are down in Central America telling them this - there are people deliberately encouraging this migration.)  They're also told that if they bring a kid - *any* kid - with them, it's even easier.  

So, the simple way to turn off that "refugee" spigot is to make the policy you must apply at a consulate in the first country you cross into.  If you fail to do so, if you enter the country illegally, you are ineligible for an asylum claim for 5 years.  If you present yourself at a Port of Entry, you can make a claim, but must wait outside the country until your hearing.  And we should hold such hearings in embassies or consulates in those countries - not here.  And we need to staff up so those hearings can be held and determinations made in days or weeks, not months or years.  

Stemming the "economic refugee" flow won't solve the problem - they'll just revert to more illegal border crossings.  There needs to be a security fence, and immediate deportations after capturing biometrics - so repeat offenders can be detected and charged.   The detention facilities need to be all-but-closed.  By expeditiously deporting those who enter the country illegally.  

And there needs to be enhanced punishments for those that exploit undocumenteds - charge employers that pay illegal workers $5 an hour with human trafficking violations - let those employers face actual prison time and fines that'll put them out of business.  Enforce it, hard.  Heck, offer work permits and cash to undocumenteds who provide information that result in the arrest and conviction of employers that knowingly exploit workers.  The hypocrisy of those that talk about "compassion" for undocumented are often so eager to benefit from their cheap labor is nauseating.    

The list of fixes goes on and on - the magnitude of the problem is overwhelming - the elementary school across the street from me is filled to the brim - 75% are ESL, many of them here as UAC's (many undocumented make pretty good livings, paid to look after UAC's.)  We spend over $100m a year in my county just building new school buildings, much of that attributable to the influx of undocumenteds and their children.  Then, of course, you have to *staff* all of those schools - we spend over $1B a year on schools in my county, now - that's staggering.  

It's an astonishing dereliction of the Congress that they're happy with the status quo.  For all the hand-wringing and pearl-clutching, they really don't seem to want to do *anything*.  

We can't import every economic refugee on the planet - a billion will come.  If we need more workers, raise the quotas, vet them, let them come here legally, with legal rights and protections against exploitation.  

Which for many, defeats the purpose.  They *like* their cheap, exploitable labor.  It's disgusting. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Jason said:

This would be a good start. Just like our foreign policy, we are not the answer to all of the world's problems. This includes Central America as well as the Middle East. 

This is a good point.   And it goes for us too.   We should not be going into so many parts of the world.   Why is other countries' business ours?   Shouldn't we be concerned about ourselves first?

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12 hours ago, Jason said:

Do you think they should build more? Also Catalina can be the new Ellis :) 

Knowing how slow congress has been to act on this, I’d think building some more detention centers so that crowding can be avoided probably has merit.

Catalina, eh? How would you get everyone there?

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2 minutes ago, Tank said:

Knowing how slow congress has been to act on this, I’d think building some more detention centers so that crowding can be avoided probably has merit.

Catalina, eh? How would you get everyone there?

Building more centers would take a couple years if it was approved today. 

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2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Building more centers would take a couple years if it was approved today. 

Have guys from Blackwater build them. I seem to recall that they were building things in Iraq in just a matter of weeks and months.

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10 hours ago, Tank said:

Knowing how slow congress has been to act on this, I’d think building some more detention centers so that crowding can be avoided probably has merit.

Catalina, eh? How would you get everyone there?

Problem solved.

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On 7/14/2019 at 11:06 AM, floplag said:

I see 3 options... 
#1 turn them away, simply say we have no more room.  This of course would result in the same partisan rhetoric we see today but would also be wholly justified.
#2 invest is upgrading them, or building more.  While this is the most obvious answer, is it practical?  We have homeless issues veterans issues and a number of other things we arent investing in, that really should take a much higher priority, how do you justify doing this over those concerns? 
#3, let them loose into the country with the promise to show up for hearings.  Even if i believed this would work, we have to vet these people that are entering, and simply cutting them loose makes zero sense in almost any regard logically. 

#3 simply doesn't work. People disappear all over the country, and too many resources would be exhausted in trying to find them. #2 is expensive, and we have much higher priorities to address. #1 flies in the face of everything that we have stood for as a country (read the inscription on the Statue of Liberty), but it may be the only feasible alternative.

One thing that has been suggested is aid to the countries where the asylum seekers come from, to make those countries more desirable as places to live. It's an indirect approach, but it would seem that it would pay dividends down the road and reduce the need to make decisions like this.

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2 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

#3 simply doesn't work. People disappear all over the country, and too many resources would be exhausted in trying to find them. #2 is expensive, and we have much higher priorities to address. #1 flies in the face of everything that we have stood for as a country (read the inscription on the Statue of Liberty), but it may be the only feasible alternative.

One thing that has been suggested is aid to the countries where the asylum seekers come from, to make those countries more desirable as places to live. It's an indirect approach, but it would seem that it would pay dividends down the road and reduce the need to make decisions like this.

Honestly, i agree with a lot of this, but it leaves a very odd conclusion in that the reality is that we are in fact doing what we can, save for the fact that an agency designed to work with about 10-15% of the volume its being asked to work with, thus the issues with over crowding, resources, etc...  Therefore all this outrage is wholly misplaced. 
Instead of abolishing them they should be asking how to help them.  Instead of donating the orgs trying to kill the process they should be donating to those helping it.  In the end, its as i feared, partisan. 

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