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2020 Democratic Field


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24 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

It’s tight in all the swing states.  Despite what you’ll read on angelswin.com there’s plenty of reason to believe that the president is very much beatable.  I think Adam has a fair point about the difficulty of gauging the presidents real support.  But I think that’s probably true for Sanders as well.  I think that in a Trump vs. Sanders election it’s like 55/45 in favor the president.  Better odds then he had when he won.  

I am having a hard time envisioning how the debates go (tactically) between Sanders and Trump. Sanders is definitely the best possible person to debate him. He doesn't make a habit of telling ridiculous lies like Warren and Biden and he's a sympathetic figure. I bet Trump is relatively nice to him. It will be interesting to see if Trump can be more subtle. One thing's for sure, there would be absolutely no nuance from either side. 

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7 minutes ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

What's the wrong headed point when I respond that 55% of the US workforce is invested in the ~28T in US retirement assets that are invested?  As of March 2019 that number was up over 29T of which 5.7T or 20% was from 401K plans. I'd criticize your facts but you don't actually post any you make claims based on feelings and then back pedal or nitpick something from a post that wasn't there.  

Because it’s not the point of what I was making.  Im talking about the things that motivate young voters who don’t have tremendous investment in the markets.  You brought up 401K’s as a means of pointing out that I’m wrong.  Which I’m saying is a stupid point.  I don’t need the statistics to tell me that a large number of people have 401k’s dr. Fianance.  Thanks for the reminder though.  Good looking out. 

Edited by UndertheHalo
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The middle class includes people across various age groups.  Your response to Jason specifically mentioned the middle class and tried to imply they have little stake in Wall Street.  Thanks and keep those Bernie talking points with no facts coming.  They work for the segment of the population that thinks they can vote themselves a better life with someone else's money but not so much with the rest.  I'll gladly remind you and point out how full of shit you are whenever I have the time. 

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2 hours ago, Adam said:

I can't quantify this but it sure feels as though the # of closeted Trump voters is going to be extremely high. I imagine that there are millions of people, who will not publicly or even among friends and family, declare any willingness to vote for Trump. Ostracization is powerful. But in the voting booth...

Sounds like those people are actually voting pretty hard if they won't even admit it outside the booth.

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2 hours ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

The middle class includes people across various age groups.  Your response to Jason specifically mentioned the middle class and tried to imply they have little stake in Wall Street.  Thanks and keep those Bernie talking points with no facts coming.  They work for the segment of the population that thinks they can vote themselves a better life with someone else's money but not so much with the rest.  I'll gladly remind you and point out how full of shit you are whenever I have the time. 

What else did I say about the middle class descriptor ? The bullshit point is your reference to people 401K’s.  It’s fucking nonsense.  There’s plenty of data that demonstrates that most Americans have not benefited from the recent stock market surge.  And that was all my point was before you made it about retirement vehicles.  You live on another planet if you sincerely believe that a large number of people shape their politics around the stock market.  There fact that 55% percent of working Americans have some sort of investment (almost entirely 401k) isn’t indicative of anything other then they possess a benefit their employer gives them.   

Edited by UndertheHalo
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I'm guessing the 55% who are invested have benefited to some degree.  Don't believe I said anything about people shaping their politics around the stock market.   That said some people do as if the economy is good usually the stock market is which works in the incumbents favor.  As to your last sentence 401K's are defined contribution plans which as a whole represent about 28% of the currently 29T in US retirement assets.  IRA's which represent about 33% of the 29T are something anyone can open at the age of 18 and start investing in so even people who don't have a 401K option through their employer or have one with crap choices can still invest.  Investing for retirement doesn't require a degree or certain aptitude for finance it requires dedication, living below ones means and yeah some luck when it comes to things like health.  For the majority of people life choices are what drive their situation and not caricatures of Wall Street fat cats sitting around in some boardroom deciding their fate.  No amount of taxation or redistribution of wealth will make people on the receiving end smarter with money; see lottery winners of which a reported 70% go broke.  

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14 hours ago, Tank said:

87478040_688388828365743_1869977942625353728_n.jpg

This well illustrates both the complete lack of understanding about Bernie's platform that is promulgated on the right, and also the difference between underlying worldviews.

From the "Bernie perspective," there is no "other team." According to this meme, low-income and working class people are the "other team" to the middle and upper class. But it isn't about teams, it isn't a competition. That's the difference. The hyper-capitalist model is based on Social Darwinism: survival of the fittest, competing against others for resources. Bernie's is a more collaborative model.

And yes, it does involve re-distribution of the wealth. But rich people will remain rich, just slightly less so. And the pay-off? Everyone has healthcare and education, and no one is "other."

(In before @calscuf says, "cry me a river, hippie; go back to smoking weed and watching re-runs of Magnum P.I.  in your  pajamas that you haven't taken off in weeks.")

 

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That's incorrect because the "Tax % Before" brackets in that graphic are from prior to 2018.  The brackets are currently 10, 12, 22, 24, 32, 35 and 37% respectively.  So under his plan middle class people in the 12, 22 and 24% brackets will pay more than they currently do.  Either sloppy (reusing from 2016) or deceptive and if it was put out by his team neither is confidence inspiring.

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4 minutes ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

That's incorrect because the "Tax % Before" brackets in that graphic are from prior to 2018.  The brackets are currently 10, 12, 22, 24, 32, 35 and 37% respectively.  So under his plan middle class people in the 12, 22 and 24% brackets will pay more than they currently do.  Either sloppy (reusing from 2016) or deceptive and if it was put out by his team neither is confidence inspiring.

Fair enough. Evidently its an old chart. Anyhow, the vast majority of lower income people will be greatly benefited by a  Sanders presidency because of reduced health care and education costs. 

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Those are the 2015 MFJ brackets: https://taxfoundation.org/2015-tax-brackets/  I really hope that was some random feel the Berner that put that together.

In his interview Sunday night on 60 minutes Sanders couldn't even come up with an estimate of what his medical plan would cost.  It's all lip service until his side puts out an actual plan that will be reviewed by independent groups.

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32 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Fair enough. Evidently its an old chart. Anyhow, the vast majority of lower income people will be greatly benefited by a  Sanders presidency because of reduced health care and education costs. 

Quote

For the Medicare for All plan, Sanders has offered a number of financing options, including creating a 4 percent income-based premium while exempting the first $29,000 in income for a family of four, requiring employers to pay a 7.5 percent income-based premium, getting rid of health tax expenditures and increasing the top marginal income tax to 52 percent on incomes over $10 million.

Sounds like the pipe dream of the rich paying for Medicare for all is not true.  

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