2019-20 Free Agent Class

[Blarg]

42 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

By rebuild I mean they should have traded away pretty much everyone on the roster at the 2016 deadline. Their farm system would be amazing right now if they did that and they still would have been able to sign all of the guys that they did over the last two years.

They had all of Trout, Simmons and Calhoun to trade from the field that had any worth.

They didn't have really any pitchers because they either were on the DL or returning from Tommy John surgery and were unproven

If you say trade Trout you have decided to ruin the franchise value for a decade where fans have no one to watch their hopes on. 

So your brilliant plan actually doesn't move the team forward at all. No faster than they are moving now but without Trout.

[beatlesrule]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So that podcast somehow said guys like Richards who pitched 4 games that year had value?  Or was it Weaver and his 6 ERA that had value?  Maybe it was Nolasco or Santiago that had value?  Was it the bad version of Houston Street that had value because his ERA was over 6 that year too.  Sorry but anything that tells you, like a podcast, that we had tradeable assets in 2016 is full of shit.  Look for yourself at that team.  Maybe we could have gotten something for Rafael Ortega, remember him?  Me neither.  Carlos Perez?  Giavotella?  Escobar?  Al Albuquerque?  Cam had value that year.  So yea, there were four guys, Trout, Simmons, Kole and Cam.  

I posted the link to the podcast months ago. I will look for it again. Then the Angels should have at least traded Cam and Kole if that's all you believe held value.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, beatlesrule said:

So? The Astros won a World Series and are in position to own the division for several years.

Kind of like the Angel's after 2002?

[tdawg87]

4 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

I posted the link to the podcast months ago. I will look for it again. Then the Angels should have at least traded Cam and Kole if that's all you believe held value.

So we'd have a maybe slightly better farm system. 

F*ck yes!

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, beatlesrule said:

The Angels should have went for a rebuild in 2016. Moreno is not that smart though. He wants his 3 million fans so he spends just enough to give the illusion of competing.  I know there are plenty of fans that would rather have a decent team every year and just hope they play well enough to make the playoffs and win the World Series.

 

I want to see the absolute best team on the field every year. I don't need to remind you how successful teams like New York, Boston and San Fransisco have been in the last 20 years or so. Hell, the Marlins have only been around since 1993 and have more World Series than the Angels.  We aren't some small market team here. Too many fans seem to forget that.

Our FO just lacks the intelligence it takes to field a winner. Just look at how long they kept their manager as exhibit A. So far, Eppler has not taken the Angels to the playoffs. Yes, this year was decimated with injuries. As a Redskins fan, I know all about that. But since the Angels are not really good at drafting(can't find a 3rd baseman to save their life) and haven't really made any good trades, they lacked the depth to fill in for those injuries.  Of course there are outliers like Trout and Simba but if smarter people were in charge of things, this team would actually be good. 

The Astros are just doing a better job at running a baseball franchise and winning than the Angels as of today. That's just in our division too.  The A's were also better this year although I have my doubts that they can replicate that.

It gets frustrating sure but we have the owner that doesn't want to win at all costs and doesn't have the smartest baseball people employed. We will see how things go under Eppler and it sure is looking up so that's something to look forward to. It should be a crime that a player like Trout has to have his talent wasted though.

The Angel's should have rebuilt in 2010

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, stormngt said:

The Angel's should have rebuilt in 2010

They thought they were doing just that when they let guys go and had 5 draft picks in The top 100.... They blew that draft and still managed to live off the team Stoneman built for 5 years.... But blowing that draft set the team back significantly.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[stormngt]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

They thought they were doing just that when they let guys go and had 5 draft picks in The top 1000.... They blew that draft and still managed to live off the team Stoneman built for 5 years.... But blowing that draft set the team back significantly.

Good point.  However trading for wells and then later Heran isnt really rebuilding with youth.

[beatlesrule]

18 minutes ago, stormngt said:

The Angel's should have rebuilt in 2010

True but 2016 was the tipping point and they did nothing.

I found the podcast I was referring to here. Start at 12 min https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/effectively-wild-episode-932/ @Stradling

[Inside Pitch]

14 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Good point.  However trading for wells and then later Heran isnt really rebuilding with youth.

That team was pretty young  though...  

Kendrys and Callaspo were 27, Howie and Aybar, 26... Wood proved unworthy at age 25, Trumbo was 24, Bourjos 23, and Conger was 22.   Rotation wise Weaver and Santana were 27, they had traded for what they had hoped would be a resurgent Kazmir who was 25 at the time...  Even Haren was only 29.   That's a significant number of core guys in their primes.

The failure of that draft was really crippling.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

True but 2016 was the tipping point and they did nothing.

I found the podcast I was referring to here. Start at 12 min https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/effectively-wild-episode-932/ @Stradling

I will check it out.  

[beatlesrule]

To sum up the podcast, by trading away most of that 2016 roster(not Trout), they concluded that you could probably get back 21 prospects.  They traded away Simmons though which I didn't agree with but there you go. The guys that 2016 team were worth more than many here think.

[Docwaukee]

7 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

True but 2016 was the tipping point and they did nothing.

I found the podcast I was referring to here https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/effectively-wild-episode-932/ @Stradling

we finished 85-77 in 2015 and almost made the playoffs.  

we entered the off season that year with a healthy Richards, Heaney (who had just made 18 starts with 3.49 era in his first season), Santiago pitched 180.2 innings with a 3.59 era, Wilson, Shoe and Weaver were still viable back of the rotation starters and Trop had showed promise in his debut and Skaggs was 19 months post TJ surg.  

our pen needed some work but wasn't terrible.  

the lineup  had a couple holes but Albert was still decent with a 118 ops+.  We needed a 3b, LF, C and 2bman.  Instead, Eppler opted for Simmons at SS.  There were a bunch of higher end OF options available including Upton and we passed on all of them.  The addition of Escobar was decent but we ended up with Giavotella at 2b, Perez/Bandy at C, and opted for the platoon of Nava/Gentry in LF.  

I was pretty damn annoyed that Arte wouldn't budge on payroll at all.  We were still paying hamilton and in desperate need of a bat.  We had already used our only farm piece to get Simmons.  A series of 1yr deals to fill those lineup spots would have been great in theory.  I think it was the winter where Arte made the 'economics' quote from his Yacht during the xmas parade.  

Yet it was probably good that the money wasn't spend because the pitching staff fell apart.  I was actually pretty excited about our rotation at that point.  

But rebuilding before 2016 would have been premature.  It was actually more justified going into free agency more.  Yet Eppler was right not to and more importantly to not give up any picks.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, beatlesrule said:

To sum up the podcast, by trading away most of that 2016 roster(not Trout), they concluded that you could probably get back 21 prospects.  They traded away Simmons though which I didn't agree with but there you go. The guys they had were worth more than many here think.

Or the podcast was wrong.  Look at the roster and tell me who was worth anything at all.  Look at their results.  

[beatlesrule]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Or the podcast was wrong.  Look at the roster and tell me who was worth anything at all.  Look at their results.  

Just listen to it. Please don't comment on something you didn't even listen to.

@Dochalo I am referring to the 2016 trade deadline.

[Docwaukee]

2 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Just listen to it. Please don't comment on something you didn't even listen to.

@Dochalo I am referring to the 2016 trade deadline.

I listened to that podcast when it first came out.  It's basically just a few guys riffing.  I think they did it for almost every team as part of an experiment and wasn't meant as a 'should' give up everyone, but 'what if' each team did this.  

by the time the deadline rolled around, Heaney was out, Richards was hurt, Skaggs wasn't back, Wilson hadn't pitched, Weaver was terrible.  Santiago was meh and a headcase.  So there was no trade value there anymore.  

the pen was a hot mess.  Street was awful.    

we had just traded for Escobar for a fringe reliever before the season so he was worth f all. 

Simmons had a .649 ops at the time and has subsequently increased his value a ton. 

So that left Trout, who we weren't trading, and Calhoun.  

So basically, the only guy we missed out on trading at that point was Calhoun.  

we literally had nothing to trade.  Maybe we get one top 100 prospect for Calhoun at the time.  maybe.  

please tell me who else was available to 'rebuild' this team at that time.  

If the pitching staff had trade value at that point, we'd have been a pretty decent team and likely vying for a WC spot.  

 

 

 

[tdawg87]

Face 

[beatlesrule]

@Dochalo you need to listen to the podcast again to refresh your memory. It was done on July 26 2016 and way more guys had value than you are giving them credit for. Cam alone got 4 prospects in return according to them. At the end of the podcast, they stated this is only of course if the Angels have the guts to do it.

I understand people's first impulse though is to stick up for the decision and state everyone sucked. That's not the case though and again, goes to show that Moreno doesn't believe in doing what's best for the team which hasn't worked out for him yet.

Seriously people, just listen to the podcast before stating an opinion. That's like message board 101.

[Lou]

with all due respect, at no time ever was Cam worth 4 prospects. 

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

@Dochalo you need to listen to the podcast again to refresh your memory. It was done on July 26 2016 and way more guys had value than you are giving them credit for. Cam alone got 4 prospects in return according to them. At the end of the podcast, they stated this is only of course if the Angels have the guts to do it.

I’ll listen to it, but you have to admit this bolded part it is exactly your thought process.  So that is why you value it.  

[Docwaukee]

10 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

@Dochalo you need to listen to the podcast again to refresh your memory. It was done on July 26 2016 and way more guys had value than you are giving them credit for. Cam alone got 4 prospects in return according to them. At the end of the podcast, they stated this is only of course if the Angels have the guts to do it.

I understand people's first impulse though is to stick up for the decision and state everyone sucked. That's not the case though and again, goes to show that Moreno doesn't believe in doing what's best for the team which hasn't worked out for him yet.

Seriously people, just listen to the podcast before stating an opinion. That's like message board 101.

I'm well aware of what they perceived as value for some of those guys.  Hence the reason I mapped it out as I did.  

Cam got 4 prospects from who?  

My impulse is to stick up for what's reasonable.   What they were presenting wasn't in my opinion, and it not about balls.  You have to also understand how that kinda stuff works.  

 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Sigh.... 

It's an undeniable fact that they have already improved.... Unless going from 30th to 10-12 in a calendar year (while simultaneously not surrendering MLB level assets), isn't considered improvement.   Pretending another year of development and solid drafting won't help them improve is willful ignorance.    

You say that and yet you went on record as saying that spending another 30 mil would guarantee more than a one game wild card...    Tell me more about how arrogance of others.

As far as history goes -- the line about those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it seems pretty evident here.  Everything about the last three years suggests the current front office has learned from this team's history and made every effort to try not repeat those mistakes.  Unfortunately much of the fan base blinds themselves to it and would rather see them repeat those mistakes because well...  this it time... it will work.
 

i never said it guaranteed more than a 1 game wild card, i said it guaranteed getting there and gave us a chance for more.  As it stand we need help to even get there.    Ill admit even saying it guaranteed that was silly as nothing guarantees anything, but it would have statistically given us that projection as the favorite as opposed to being the last team to miss the post which is how we project now.  
Right now we project to finish outside the wild card, we all know we need help and luck to get there.  Anything can happen but those are the facts. 
I dont know what mistakes you are referring to since i never asked for a big money signing or trading the farm, just a couple upgrades to improve our chances.  

[beatlesrule]

5 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I'm well aware of what they perceived as value for some of those guys.  Hence the reason I mapped it out as I did.  

Cam got 4 prospects from who?  

My impulse is to stick up for what's reasonable.   What they were presenting wasn't in my opinion, and it not about balls.  You have to also understand how that kinda stuff works.  

 

This just goes to show you that you don't remember the podcast. They didn't state which team all these guys go to. They did comparable player trades and other analytics to come up with their opinions and again, most of the guys on the Angels roster had trade value. Cam had a 1.12 ERA that year for example and you didn't even mention him in your previous post.

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, beatlesrule said:

True but 2016 was the tipping point and they did nothing.

I found the podcast I was referring to here. Start at 12 min https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/effectively-wild-episode-932/ @Stradling

What’s to say that keeping that core in place and at least attempting to rebuild on the fly while stopgapping for a WC couldn’t be the reason they were working on keeping Trout convinced this was the long-term place to be?

Had health been on our side, we would’ve been competitive in recent years, no doubt. And we didn’t destroy Trout’s future in doing so. 

[Inside Pitch]

18 minutes ago, Lou said:

with all due respect, at no time ever was Cam worth 4 prospects. 

They had Shoemaker going for four guys too...

[Docwaukee]

Just now, beatlesrule said:

This just goes to show you that you don't remember the podcast. They didn't state which team all these guys go to. They did comparable player trades and other analytics to come up with their opinions and again, most of the guys on the Angels roster had trade value.

dude.  I know.  I remember it.  I am saying that them speculating that Cam was worth what he was is bogus.  That's why I essentially asked 'who'.  as in who the hell would do that.