Is the 'Arte Factor' a concern?

[Docwaukee]

As fans, we certainly have expectations of how an off season should go but by and large, they are often misguided.  While well intended, they are often unrealistic largely because we are not privy to what is going on behind the scenes.  

One person who is privy, however is Halo's owner Arte Moreno and there has been speculation or even moderately firm evidence that he has inserted himself into player personnel decisions beyond merely approving money to be spent.  

My question therefore, is if you think Arte starts to get frustrated with the fact that there has been little improvement in areas to be professed as team needs by Eppler?  

I would like to think that Arte has far more confidence in Billy than he did Reagins or Dipoto.  It was interesting to hear Steve Philips, Jim Bowden and Jim Duquette talk about this.  While I don't find any of them overly tolerable or believable (Duquette is decent actually), they all have cited on various occasions that ownership had pushed them in a certain direction.  

I feel like things are much less dysfunctional in the front office than they've been in the recent past for the Angels, but deals like Vernon Wells, Albert Pujols and Josh Hamilton can't help but creep into my mind and the last thing we need is something similar.  

As much as many are frustrated with this off season so far, I still like the direction of the team and don't want emotion playing a role that would result in long term damage.  

Thoughts?  

[Angelsjunky]

Yes, I agree with your sentiment. Ultimately we can't know how much the "Arte factor" plays a role.

As for Dipoto vs. Eppler, it is a classic case of "show-er" vs. "grower." Dipoto talked big, but his, ahem, performance was lacking. Eppler is more understated and gradually, ah, grows on you.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that)

[T.G.]

I think people worry a great deal about things (or just think about things) they have no control over way too much. You're asking a question that no one has an answer for.  Why even speculate about it?  What purpose would that serve?  Not trying to be a jerk here. There's a lot of angst in this forum and it's really not necessary. 

[totdprods]

My hope would be, if Arte is going to step in, he does it more generally rather than laser-beaming in on one name. 

Instead of signing Harper or Machado, or Keuchel and Grandal, just tell Eppler he has $30m more to work with, to be used in whatever manager baseball ops feels would be best. 

[Angelsjunky]

A bit more. Arte is a smart guy, but he's not a baseball expert. Eppler probably has the benefit of the doubt because of what came before. Remember that all GMs started as prospective GMs, and came in with a sales pitch on how to bring the team a championship, or at least a perennial contender. After years of success and then a dip, Arte opened up the purse-strings for Dipoto, maybe became over-zealous in going after Pujols and Hamilton (didn't he sign Hamilton on his own?).

After it turned out Dipoto didn't know what he was doing and the franchise was realing, Eppler came in with a more subtle and moderate approach and obviously impressed. He probably said something like, "I can bring long-term success but it will take 3-5 years - or before Trout hits free agency."

Its been three years, so if that is at all true (just a groundless guess), there might be the first inklings of "We need to start seeing that golden future, or at least hints of it."

 

[Docwaukee]

5 minutes ago, True Grich said:

I think people worry a great deal about things (or just think about things) they have no control over way too much. You're asking a question that no one has an answer for.  Why even speculate about it?  What purpose would that serve?  Not trying to be a jerk here. There's a lot of angst in this forum and it's really not necessary. 

90% of the shit we talk about here is pure speculation.  The board wouldn't exist without it.  

[tdawg87]

10 minutes ago, True Grich said:

I think people worry a great deal about things (or just think about things) they have no control over way too much. You're asking a question that no one has an answer for.  Why even speculate about it?  What purpose would that serve?  Not trying to be a jerk here. There's a lot of angst in this forum and it's really not necessary. 

It's a message board dude. This is what we do during the off-season. 

Would you rather this board be completely dead? That's the alternative.

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

It's a message board dude. This is what we do during the off-season. 

Would you rather this board be completely dead? That's the alternative.

Yes. No survivors.

[T.G.]

13 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

90% of the shit we talk about here is pure speculation.  The board wouldn't exist without it.  

I think it's more like 90% is just complaining or whining to some degree (and I'm not saying that I'm not also guilty of this).  That other 10% is the gold that keeps some of us coming back.

[Jay]

It's Arte's team, therefore the Arte factor.

 

[Halodays]

3 minutes ago, True Grich said:

I think it's more like 90% is just complaining or whining to some degree.  That other 10% is the gold that keeps some of us coming back.

Well with nothing being done really, there tends to be whining and complaining. Hell give us something to stop the whining and complaining.

[T.G.]

Just now, Halodays said:

Well with nothing being done really, there tends to be whining and complaining. Hell give us something to stop the whining and complaining.

He gave us Justin Bour? What Mour could you want?

[Chuck]

Forums and social media are great outlets to vent, share stories and discuss topics of interest. 

Wake up, @True Grich.  

[T.G.]

Just now, Chuckster70 said:

Forums and social media are great outlets to vent, share stories and discuss topics of interest. 

Wake up, @True Grich.  

It's winter... I'm hibernating.  I do this stuff in my sleep.

[AngelsLakersFan]

If Arte really did have his hands in the Hamilton or Pujols signings you have to think that he has learned his lesson by now. He already has his star players.

[m0nkey]

30 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Yes. No survivors.

Would have no issue.  Sign me up.

[Angel Oracle]

It's time to reap the benefits of a rebuilt farm system.   Don't stunt that growth and future benefits for acquisitions that aren't certainties and could reverse the growth of the franchise.

[ettin]

So based on your other posts @Dochalo I can see where your head is at right now which is we appear to have missed out on a series of free agent pitchers (Corbin, Eovaldi, and Happ) and and are now left with a bare kitchen cabinet and it appears we don't have enough resources to fill it up with all the food we need to serve Christmas dinner.

To be frank I think your concerns are legitimate on some level but I also think that there is still a lot of off-season left and there is enough low-hanging fruit in the trade market to still fill the cabinet without breaking the farm system.

The CBT threshold is just an artificial construct that I think we often concern ourselves unnecessarily about. Moreno has exceeded it one time for a very minor amount. He can do so again and the penalty will not be that much if he does not exceed the $226M or even $246M mark over a two year period. My point about this latter comment is that I don't think Arte is afraid to go over the $206M by a modest amount (I am thinking upwards to the $226 amount - somewhere in between).

Which again makes me come back to what can we do still and I think there is still a LOT of off-season left to improve the team. If we lost a prospect like Brandon Marsh (because we have Adell and Jordyn Adams to replace Calhoun and Upton respectively) or Jose Suarez (because we have Patrick Sandoval and Nate Smith to replace him) would we really be in bad shape by making a couple of trades for starters and perhaps a catcher and then use the extra space for a Trout extension and perhaps a reliever?

Sonny Gray for a couple of low-level prospects? Robbie Ray and Alex Avila in exchange for Brandon Marsh and Leonardo Rivas? Jose Urena in exchange for Jose Soriano and a couple of low-level prospects? Grab Jedd Gyorko for a couple of mid-tier prospects? Shore up the bullpen by signing a reliever like Ottavino, Soria, Robertson, Clippard, or Miller for example? Most of that would cost about $35M give or take?

There is plenty of time left to improve in my opinion. Yes Moreno might intervene but we can do nothing about that and it may be a good thing not a bad one. Machado and Harper are both very talented players and a contract with one or more early opt-outs (or insurance) vastly decreases our exposure and risk. Signing either one would keep us under the $226 CBT Tier 1 level (about $215M or so) and would only result in a $2M-3M tax penalty for 2019. That is not much in the scheme of baseball team payroll numbers.

I don't think they go there to be honest based on Eppler's comments and I am fine with that. Some of those moves above would be great and would make us competitive without destroying our future (Adell, Canning, Sandoval, Rengifo, Adams, Madero, et al).

Let's get closer to Spring Training and see where we are at.

[Slegnaac]

Artie needs to be much more involved in the accuracy of the players' images on the promotional items the team hands out.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Dochalo said:

One person who is privy, however is Halo's owner Arte Moreno and there has been speculation or even moderately firm evidence that he has inserted himself into player personnel decisions beyond merely approving money to be spent.  

My question therefore, is if you think Arte starts to get frustrated with the fact that there has been little improvement in areas to be professed as team needs by Eppler?  

I don't think Arte involves himself unless he believes the fans have lost total faith in the process....   And even then, I think he may have learned from his having tried to appease the fan base.   For years people have talked about the only thing he cares about is reaching 3 million fans..   Failure to do that, or a belief that there is a disconnect between fans the team might spur him to push for more, but IMO he's learned from the recent past and is likely willing to trust the process in place.

My personal belief -- he's waiting to see the farm system bear fruit -- if Canning, Suarez or ANY of the younger position players comes up and holds his own I think you may see him throw money at a marquee guy.  Doesn't hurt that the more time passes the less he has to eat when it comes to AP....

[hangin n wangin]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yes, I agree with your sentiment. Ultimately we can't know how much the "Arte factor" plays a role.

As for Dipoto vs. Eppler, it is a classic case of "show-er" vs. "grower." Dipoto talked big, but his, ahem, performance was lacking. Eppler is more understated and gradually, ah, grows on you.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that)

Gotta love AW and how any topic can be turned into one about cocks.

[floplag]

If hes frustrated he has no reason to be as his limited budget is part of the reason we are where we are.  He had to know what kind of GM Eppler was when he hired him and what his plan would be.  

The news and impression around us are extremely unclear and contradictory.  Well spend for the right players, but we have a limited budget.  Were looking at trades more than FA, but were not going to hurt the development of the farm.   Our priority is pitching, yet we havent signed one and let some go?    I think its pretty clear this off season has not gone as they hoped it would to date.  Keeping it close to the vest is one thing, confusing the hell out of everyone is another.   Being involved in talks doesn't show anything when you are 15-20% lower than the winners.   Is actually winning at the ML level on the short term a priority at all? 

Its just my opinion but I think the players are picking up on that making us a far less attractive destination at least until we know if Trout is staying or not.   If we cant win with him it seems, who wants to come here and be left with the aftermath if he leaves.  I think that might be hurting us the most.  If we cant win with him, who wants to come here and get stuck with the aftermath.  Whatever is going to happen with that, needs to get done like, yesterday.   I get you might have to wait on Harper/Machado to finalize the money but damn, say something to get that concern off the table.     

[VariousCrap]

9 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

Gotta love AW and how any topic can be turned into one about cocks.

Some of these guys are what they eat.

[hangin n wangin]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Don't stunt that growth and future benefits for acquisitions that aren't certainties and could reverse the growth

 

1 hour ago, ettin said:

So based on your other posts @Dochalo I can see where your head is at right now

More penii talk....

In all seriousness. I want Arte no where near baseball decisions. His Pujols, Hamilton, and Wells decisions were enough.

He needs to sit his old ass down and let the baseball men to do their job.

[WeatherWonk]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

If Arte really did have his hands in the Hamilton or Pujols signings you have to think that he has learned his lesson by now. He already has his star players.

I am worried that what we are experiencing is a Reverse Arte Factor, based on these horrible signings. He's become gun shy, even with regards to  mid-level signings that wont hamstring us;  the way the aforementioned signings did.

And, based on what ratings services have written about our farm system, he is navigating the waters of ownership in new territory. It is an enticing Siren;  the song of cost-controlled talent from within.